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ANAlog 2-20-98 

A Discussion on #analove (irc.warped.net)
(it starts abruptly in the middle of the discussion.) 


-KESJeremy- i mean, philosophical or psychological?
 -babette- oh. more phil than psych. crit theory.
-[][p_p][]- Perfect, Babette.  I'd really like to read it.
-^isabella- babette... i would love 2 read it as well!
-babette- probably will use some lacan, though. against my will.
spectator theory, too.
 -[][p_p][]- lacan? What is that?
 -KESJeremy- bab, that gets really complex to analyze the experience on
both sides of the cam!
-babette- french psychoanalyst, post-Freudian, extremely influential
 -babette- kes, i never said i would do that
 -[][p_p][]- Ahhh.. I studied much philosophy, but never really got into
the psychoanalyst side
-scabboy- psychoanalyst huh? i'm a psychology major
-^isabella- kewl scabboy
 -KESJeremy- and you admit it?... ;)
-scabboy- whatta ya want to know?
 * ^isabella got her BA in psychology
 -[][p_p][]- I would just like to see a formal explanation of the cam
phenomena. Because I really dont' get it.
-KESJeremy- i agree, Siam
 -scabboy- people are fascinated by others' lives because they sometimes
think they're missing something
-^isabella- i wanted 2 do a psychological study on CUseeme
-muse-er- I think its called voyerism
 -^isabella- have any of u ever done CU?
-[][p_p][]- And what is the reason that people on the other side of the
cam do it?
 -scabboy- exhibition
-KESJeremy- but this is not pure voyeurism...because it requires
exhibitionism
 -muse-er- inspiration
 -scabboy- maybe they're seeking acceptance
-^isabella- scabboy...i don't think it is about seeking acceptance
-scabboy- i think i'd like to have a camera on me
 -scabboy- why not?
-^isabella- u should get a connectix camera, i have one,  never been the
same since
-muse-er- God theres a thought. ana with twenty screens all looking back
at her.
-babette- actually, isa, i have a strong suspicion that academic work on
the topic of cams is just around the corner.
-scabboy- maybe i'll do my dissertation on web cams
-^isabella- if i were in school... i would totally love 2 do a study on
CUseeme...... the social aspects of CU
 -babette- i have a feeling you are doing a study even tho you're not in
school, isa
-muse-er- right I meant she could see all of us at the same time.... I
suppose that day is not far off
-^isabella- i am certainly learning a lot about people
 -scabboy- i often wonder why i sit here and watch ana.... it baffles me
-Rndheels- Isa, someone is likely to do their doctorate on you
-babette- scabboy that's the ticket
-scabboy- guess i'm a voyeur
-muse-er- she is a muse
-scabboy- that too
-scabboy- do any of you pay for ana2?
-muse-er- I just did
-scabboy- that is more interesting if people pay to be voyeurs
 -babette- why
-scabboy- is it much better?
 -^isabella- yes...it is better
 -babette- welcome to america
 -muse-er- In her case there is much more going on.
 -^isabella- but all is good
-scabboy- paying to watch another person's life is interesting
 -muse-er- depends on the person
-scabboy- why do you think you do it?
-muse-er- she is a muse
-babette- isa and siam:  are you serious, so far you haven't read
critical work on the topic?
-^isabella- babette...i haven't.... then again, i haven't done a formal
search
-[][p_p][]- Babette: I haven't
 -scabboy- is there critical work on the topic?
-^isabella- most of the interviews are all basically the same
-babette- well then. i better get cracking. i love breaking a new
field... well, it will take a minute or two to filter up... but only a
minute.
-KESJeremy- babette, are you focusing on one particular side of the cam?
 -babette- it's now becoming acceptable for "documentary," so...
-scabboy- babette..are you a psych student as well?
-babette- kes, i don't think of it in terms of a binary (looker/artist)
-babette- scabboy, no, grad student in english/critical theory
-muse-er- I have no doubt that ana will be the subject of many articles
on people and the media
-babette- articles yes. the trajectory into other things, though, is
what interests me.
 -KESJeremy- babette, so you see it as a continuum across the medium...a
relationship?
-scabboy- cameras are an amazing phenomenon, it makes me wonder what
underlying motives are there
-babette- i would agree with that
 -^isabella- underlying motives?
-babette- or at least the rhetoric of the internet supports the
"interactivity" principle
-scabboy- yeah..why people look and why people display
-muse-er- communication on a global scale
-^isabella- it depends on the type of site
-babette- yes, isa? go on
 -^isabella- for example...
 -muse-er- you are participating
 -^isabella- many cams are sex oriented
 -babette- and
 -scabboy- we can understand why sex oriented cams are popular..but what
about anacam and others
-[][p_p][]- Yeah.... I don't get it.
-^isabella- those sex related cams are being viewed for a variety of
reasons
-MMM-A- Many? Most! Sex brings in the dollars, too.
-scabboy- primarily to satisfy sexual desires...... i don't fulfil
sexual desires by watching ana
-muse-er- anacam is a NEW phenomanon
-KESJeremy- well, then you have to get into looking at the gender
differences in responding to the sex cams...
 -^isabella- ana's cam is different tho... it is a "day in the life"....
adventure
 -muse-er- yes and much more
 -KESJeremy- yes, isa, but it is still part performance, don't you
think?
 -^isabella- and the fact that she is an artist/musician doing
something...merging forward in that arena
 -KESJeremy- ok, exactly
 -^isabella- it is as if we are viewing an artist ready to merge
-MMM-A- Personally, I especially like it when ana spends hours putting
things in front of the cam saying, in effect: "Look at THIS!"
-^isabella- seeing all that goes on behind the scenes
 -^isabella- it is fascinating
-babette- i don't know isa, i see a lot of tit.
 -muse-er- so what
-scabboy- tits are just a body part
 -^isabella- that is part of ana's personality
-babette- so, i want to contest the assertion that it is a marginal
issue
 -scabboy- guys show their "tits" all the time
 -^isabella- and an intriguing part
 -babette- i agree
-TheMonk- 'part' performance?
-scabboy- our society needs to be more acceping of non sexual nudity
-KESJeremy- but why are the vast majority of sex cams...especially
"successful" ones...showing females?
-^isabella- the fact that she is comfortable enough 2 sit around, walk
about the house nude
 -scabboy- i walk around my apartment nude
 -^isabella- because everyone is fascinated with females
 -babette- look, we do not have a sexually repressive society. we have
the opposite, okay?
-^isabella- men and women alike
 -babette- we are asked to use sex as a meta-narrative, a metaphor for
everything
-^isabella- heh
 -KESJeremy- really, isa?...that's interesting
  females are nicer to look at than males
-^isabella- not asked to use sex
-babette- oh yes we are! that's why we keep trying to "understand" it.
-^isabella- we are sexual beings... are draw to sex is natural
 -^isabella- yes, of course, babette
-babette- the drive to sex is natural, the employment of sex as the
"key" to our being is not. it is a constructed thing, and it is recent.
comparatively speaking.
-scabboy- the internet is sex's pimp
-KESJeremy- but this is purely visual sex...why is it more successful
for a female to display her sexuality?
 -babette- why do we have to keep congratulating ourselves on our own
liberation?
 -scabboy- no one wants to look at guys
 -babette- who "enslaved" us?
 -scabboy- males are much more visually oriented than females
 -muse-er- agrees
-MMM-A- Both men and women appreciate the female form...
 -scabboy- it's a proven fact
-babette- maybe the obsession with sex keeps us from other things.
 -KESJeremy- scabboy, I think that may be true
 -scabboy- and women are beautiful
-^isabella- yes MMM-A
-scabboy- guys are hairy and disgusting
-MMM-A- Isa already said that.
 -babette- goddammit. i am not doing a gender analysis. that is EASY.
 -TheMonk- heh.
 * AnaSlave has met some hairy and disgusting women
-KESJeremy- babette, i am still talking about cams...not gender
 -scabboy- what are we talking about them babette
-MMM-A- That's part of the reason that men accept lesbianism .... they
understand that women can be attracted 
  to women.
-^isabella- definitely, MMM-A
 -TheMonk- schrodinger's cat.
 -muse-er- this is old hat
 -babette- what i am talking about is this.
-KESJeremy- Monk, that is part of what i am getting at
-babette- why are we "setting ourselves free" with sex?  what does that
mean? shit.
-TheMonk- why do you think we are free?
 -babette- we are not free.
-scabboy- free?
 * AnaSlave thinks it has something to do with the 'tabooness' sex has
had...
-TheMonk- so how is sex setting ourselves free?
 -muse-er- and still does
-scabboy- sex is a way to keep people happy...to avoid thinking about
their lack of freedom
-babette- that taboo is made up. but who made it up? and why?
-MMM-A- Sex is the major shackle in Western society.
 -TheMonk- we made it up.
 -babette- WRONG
-scabboy- that taboo is a USA ideal
 -babette- it is the major obsession of western society
 -scabboy- go to another country..it's much different
 -babette- and the major way we think we "are".... it's not american,
although it's more pronounced here, of course
..... americans being the bastards of the enlightenment
 -scabboy- sex is a natural part of life and should be treated as such
-^isabella- it is an obsession because any time people are told that
something is a taboo... we place emphasis on it
 -babette- why, isa?
-^isabella- i don't know the answer
-KESJeremy- it's a puritanical remnant
 -scabboy- the only way the tabboo can be broken is by accepting sex as
natural and right and good
-Vern- So you think people are drawn to looking at women? Unattractive
women too?
-babette- no it predates the puritans
 -scabboy- careful sex
 -KESJeremy- it certainly predate std's
-TheMonk- you opened a can of worms, babs.
-scabboy- it's animal nature for individuals to be attracted to one
another..why repress that?
-babette- please.
 -^isabella- sex is an obsession because of the conflicting attitudes
abound
 -KESJeremy- but babette, the cam experience begins with the 'artist'
 -^isabella- when times are conservative...
-KESJeremy- the person who buys the cam
 -^isabella- sexual "perversions" abound
 -KESJeremy- and sets it up on the web
 -babette- times are always conservative! the myth of the unrepressed
peoples is a myth
-scabboy- the reason this country has so many perverts and pedophiles is
because we are taught to repress sexual feelings... as the feelings
build, they come out in distorted ways all at once
 -scabboy- i agree completely... but repression can be high or low
 -babette- no. we do not become perverts because we're repressed.
 -scabboy- a person can be slightly repressed
 -KESJeremy- i agree, babette
 -scabboy- why do we become perverts?
 -babette- fuck the repressive hypothesis
 -^isabella- i don't think there are any "perversions" really
-babette- it's made to make you be obsessed
-scabboy- perverts don't know how to express their sexual feelings
-babette- no, no. no
 -^isabella- i just know that there are varying degrees
 -^isabella- for example
 -^isabella- there are s & m  communities, but not *everyone* is going
to be drawn into such a lifestyle
 -scabboy- everybody has their own individual tastes
-KESJeremy- and the only thing that makes s&m perverse is the outside
perception of it as perverse, yes?
-^isabella- some people say that s & m is a product of a repressive
society
 -babette- yes, they say that.
 -^isabella- i don't necessarily believe that is true
-scabboy- we should be more open about our tastes
 -^isabella- because  i think that sexuality is so varied...so
individual for each person
 -babette- here's what i think about s/m......all s/m does is expose
that POWER IS EROTIC.
-scabboy- yes..i agree
 -^isabella- power can be erotic for people...yes
 -^isabella- not all people... but many, yes
 -babette- most people do not want to face this. so the "perversion" of
S/M is constructed. Period.
 -scabboy- s/m is not perverse to those who practice it
 -KESJeremy- true, babette
 -^isabella- that is what i mean
-babette- that is not the point scabboy
-Vern- I like the way a cam lets the attractive woman attract.... in R/L
attractive women attract people that they don't want to attract. The cam
allows universal attraction without discretion...
 -babette- the point is, we make names and punishments for these things
precisely because they bother us
 -KESJeremy- but Vern, I don't think it's really about attraction
 -babette- not because they are "perverse"
-^isabella- but regarding sexual "obsession"...it is everywhere
-babette- yes, isa, it is
 -^isabella- even in societies more "sex friendly
 -KESJeremy- but, babette, why do they bother us?
-babette- but i'm asking you to look at the image from the inside out
and say to yourself, "why do we think sex is the key to a person's
SELF?"
-^isabella- i spent time in paris....there was a show on regular tv...
on sunday nites called "venus" or something
 -babette- why are all these institutions concerned with regulating it?
-^isabella- and it was hosted by a topless girl
 -Vern- But KES, why then do people spend so much time making themselves
"attractive"...
-KESJeremy- Vern, I mean the cams are not about attraction
-Vern- Not at all?
-babette- did you know that psychoanalysis was created around the
problem of (feminine) sexuality?
-^isabella- perhaps because we all have such individual ideas/"morals"
regarding sex that people feel there need to be rules
-scabboy- that's a myth
-TheMonk- yes.
 -scabboy- freud was interested in feminine sexuality
-TheMonk- hysteria.
 -^isabella- rules make people feel "safe"
 -babette- Freud and Lacan were only interested in the problem of
feminine sexuality. their major works are concerned with only it. and
how to control it.
 -scabboy- his ideas are primarily disregarded now
 -TheMonk- really?
-babette- i'm not talking about what psych majors read. i'm talking
about cultural baggage.
-TheMonk- could've fooled me.
-babette- all these institutions, they need a way to control people. to
funnel power. which is everywhere. they tried slavery. chains.
 -^isabella- cultural baggage is in everyhere
-scabboy- baggage needs to be dropped..... i don't think feminine
sexuality is a problem
-babette- guess what works best?   fucking.
-TheMonk- and how does one get rid of 'cultural baggage'?
-babette- one does not. but one does think about it.
-scabboy- we need to look past cultural baggage and the only way we can
is to learn as much about it as possible
 -^isabella- and some people do, scabboy and some people don't and there
is no way we will all agree
 -TheMonk- and there is no solution,.
 -scabboy- people should take the initiative to learn
-babette- giving perverts a perversion, a "profile," is a recent
invention. Imprisoning them is a new thing.
 -^isabella- i think that varying degrees are what make us all
appreciate the values that we ourselves have
 -babette- Giving them names is new.
 -TheMonk- recent meaning the last couple thousand years?
 -babette- But look how it works.
-babette- homosexuality is an invention dating, most people think, only
a hundred years ago
 -scabboy- no it's not
 -^isabella- no way
-babette- homos existed before
-scabboy- it dates back to ancient greek times...maybe longer
-babette- i didn'tmean they didn't exist simply that the way we think of
it now as a complex is new
 -scabboy- homosexuality used to be considered a psychological disorder
-babette- and much more dangerous
-TheMonk- why?
 -^isabella- oh, u mean, the nature vs. nurture?
 -babette- no.
 -scabboy- people taboo that which they fear
 -babette- i mean that, now we have kinsey scales and tests and kids who
are asked to take them
-TheMonk- that are worthless.
 -scabboy- or what they don't understand
-babette- and subjected to examination and prisons and stuff.
-TheMonk- prisons?
-babette- hello, sodomy laws
-TheMonk- k. sorry.
 -scabboy- ridiculous isn't it? you could be arresting for giving head
 -babette- you can trace the evolution of this pretty clearly and it is
recent.
-scabboy- check your local laws..you might be suprised
 -babette- But we think we're MORE LIBERATED NOW... ha
 -TheMonk- give me an example.
 -babette- of what
 -TheMonk- I don't think we are.
-scabboy- liberation is a myth under any government
-ANA- i agree, babette that we r not liberated
-TheMonk- the geneaology.
-MMM-A- One clue...nothing about it in the old english common law.
 -^isabella- but will we ever be completely liberated?
 -scabboy- hell no
-babette- no
 -^isabella- that is an individual issue
-babette- but that doesnt mean we shoulnt try
 -scabboy- wow me and babette agreed on something
-^isabella- up  2 decide for oneself
-babette- except you are not alone in  your head
-ANA- i am liberating myself
-babette- or in your bedroom
-^isabella- the varying degrees issue
 -scabboy- internal liberation is possible
 -babette- real liberation=telling sex to fuck the fuck off
-^isabella- but everyone has their own definition of liberation
 -babette- among other things
-scabboy- liberation in the "free" world is not completely possible
-babette- no duh, but don't give up
-^isabella- what is liberation to one
-ANA- yes, liberation is an individual thing
 -^isabella- is not liberation to another
-babette- of course but we're talking about like 600 years of
progressively worse enslavement to the token of our genitals.
-scabboy- ana..what do you think? can we be liberated?
 -babette- wrong question
 -^isabella- all i can say is liberation is individual
 -scabboy- what's the right one?
-babette- the right question is: why do you think your genitals are
connected to your liberation?
-nauru- of what what is going on
-TheMonk- why do you think we do?
-scabboy- in this society, the answer is yes... unfortunately
-babette- haven't i already said that?
-scabboy- yeah...
-ANA- my genitals are PART of my liberation, but not SOLELY
-nauru- mine are
-scabboy- that's why we need to tear the gender wall down
-nauru- right on ana
-babette- no, no.
-scabboy- and just be people
-nauru- i like the wall
-babette- you think that gender is the wall?
 -ANA- we will NEVER tear the gender wall down.
-TheMonk- the gender wall is indestructible.
-scabboy- i dunno...
-ANA- agreed, monk
-scabboy- men date men
 -babette- i dont.
-scabboy- women date women
-scabboy- where's the wall there?
 -TheMonk- that is not about gender, scab.
-babette- it's a ruse.
 -TheMonk- that is sexuality.
-babette- also a ruse
-scabboy- it's going against society's ideals though
 -nauru- gender is about people bitching who makes more money
-babette- no, don't triviallize it
-scabboy- gender is an ideal...sex is a scientific fact
-babette- it's meant death and agony to lots of peoople
 -TheMonk- yea, that's crap. a little rebellion.'
-scabboy- the death and agony is subsiding
-babette- no it aint
-scabboy- can you honestly say it's the same for a homosexual man now as
it was in 1950?
 -babette- scabboy, i didn't say that.
-scabboy- today's world is more open..not much more, but a little bit
 -babette- look the closet being opened has been a strategically
interesting thing
-MMM-A- Hmm. I find it significant that no one's dragged organized
religion into the debate yet.
-scabboy- and although it might be very slight..that's progress
 -babette- which puts people in the broad daylight of persecution  in
some new ways
-TheMonk- correct.
 -scabboy- let's not even get into religion
 -babette- we're not, don't worry
 -scabboy- religion fuels the dated cultural baggage fire
-TheMonk- but we will, eventually.
-babette- Progress schmogress.
 -scabboy- i said slight..minimal progress
 -babette- progress is a myth that makes you feel superior and masks the
other ways your freedom is impinged upon
-scabboy- ok ok..not progress, intellectual development..acceptance
-MMM-A- I mean significant in that no one's seen fit to lay the blame at
religion's feet.  Very significant.
-scabboy- i'm trying to bring in religion
 -^isabella- perhaps we feel it is progress because of the possiblities
brought to us by technological means
 -babette- i am not.
-scabboy- religion has more cultural baggage than anything else
-^isabella- the fact that we are able to find out others' ideas much
easier than before
-scabboy- hmmmm..you're on to something
-^isabella- so we feel that there is progression.... more acceptance 
 -babette- info=better, but does it?
 -^isabella- because we learn that others share views
-scabboy- but it's not progression..just openess
-ANA- because we could not even have this discussion if there were not
technology
 -scabboy- more info
 -babette- i doubt it's even that
-babette- well people have been having htis discussion for  along time
-^isabella- this may also be part of the reason that people reminice
about the "good ole days"...
-babette- much longer than the internet
-MMM-A- well, you could have the discussion...the forum is new, is all.
-^isabella- people didn't know what was underlying
-ANA- yes, babette , i know
 -babette- underlying...what
 -ANA- but WE together could not discuss it.... i'm home, alone
-^isabella- there were more secrets, so to speak
-babette- so... a-ha. secrets
 -^isabella- unknowns
-babette- which we now feel lcompelled to talk about so we can all be
more free
-scabboy- maybe we link our freedom and progression to openess
-babette- right. a progression from closed to open
-MMM-A- There are different secrets here.  We cannot gauge each other by
facial expressions and body posture here.
-babette- and a 'better' life
 -scabboy- in order to be liberated, we need to be opened in the refound
garden of eden
-ANA- except, me, mmm-a.... u can see me
-babette- good ana
-MMM-A- This is true, ana.
-MMM-A- Cams for everyone!
 -babette- no
-scabboy- i think we're all looking for a utopia that doesn't exist.....
that can't exist
-MMM-A- At least we're looking
 -babette- scabboy that's a non sequitur
-ANA- utopia is a state of mind that we can achieve from within, not
without
-scabboy- yeah..i think you're right ANA
-^isabella- and utopia is individully defined as well.... individually
 -ANA- exactly, isa
-scabboy- it just seems like we're reaching for an external utopia,
instead of looking inward
-babette- we already know that. everybody has their own opinion. yes.
-MMM-A- Its more like projecting, scab.
-scabboy- internal freedom is stronger than any external progression
-babette- please, not that.
-ANA- liberation is a state of mind..... freedom is a state of mind
 -babette- but internal stuff denies that there are constraints on us
which we do not recognize.
 -scabboy- of your internal mind..not a government's ideals
-babette- i want to be free on the inside but that's not everything.
 -scabboy- we all do
 -ANA- i think to be free on the inside is everything
 -^isabella- but u have to remember that we all place rules on ourselves
-ANA- it's all u have
-^isabella- rules of one form or another
-babette- ana, no offense, but your view is a reflection of your
privilege.
-scabboy- but your internal freedom cannot be expressed in a world with
freedom constraints
 -babette- and i don't think its enough.
-ANA- my view is not stemming from any privilege i have
 -babette- all views stem from your privilege, as do mine
-scabboy- what?
-ANA- i disagree.... because privilege is an illusion.. and it is
outward
-babette- you think that you can live without being chained to a wall is
an illusion?
 -scabboy- even the most underprivelged person can find some kind of
personal freedom as long as they have a mind
 -ANA- it says nothing of who i truly am and i am not defined by it, in
my mind
-MMM-A- privelege == reward
 -ANA- EVERYTHING is an illusion
 -babette-  no it doesnt'.... no it isn't
 -ANA- i think it is
-scabboy- a buddhist person living in the mountains with no internet or
running water can find inner peace through meditation
-babette- so
-scabboy- but we would look at his life as unprivileged
-babette- i don't care how we look at it
 -scabboy- i'm saying personal freedom is a subjective evaluation made
by that person not determined by another
-ANA- u can say how privileged or underprivileged i am, but it does not
change the core of me
 -scabboy- or based on privelege
 ^isabella is trying to remember the initial question that started this
conversation
 -babette- ana, it's not an accusation. i want to be clear about that.
it's about awareness, which i think you're interested in
-ANA- the psychology of cams and why do "the cam people" do this?
 -scabboy- welll, you can't base a person's feeling of freedom on the
level of their privelege
-ANA- so, isa why do u do your cam?
-^isabella- if i had to narrow the reasons down... i suppose it comes
down to a form of expression .. pushing personal boundaries
 -ANA- can u elaborate? if you'd like to?
-^isabella- the exhiliration of creating something which intrigues me
and hopefully others
 -ANA- what intrigues you?
-babette- isa, it does.
 -scabboy- i hope i didn't piss you off too much babette
 -babette- scabboy, what makes you think you did?
 -babette- i live for this shit
 -^isabella-
sexlovelustlivingwonderthemysteriousquestionsphilosophypsychologymoodsemotions
-scabboy- i dunno..we disagreed a little bit
-babette- i didn't notice
-scabboy- you put up a hell of an argument
-babette- thanks. come back for more anytime!
-scabboy- don't worry i will
-^isabella- it isn't for everyone.. but that is fine... i don't
know....u decide for yourself
-babette- way to be
 -ANA- siam is trying to understand why i do this
-MMM-A- But, isa, your cam and anas are apart from the body of this
debate...the're unique.
-babette- no they're not apart...they are in the middle
-^isabella- i agree
 -ANA- i don't think they are apart from this debate at all
-^isabella- my cam is only on at limited times
-babette- they don't "mean" the whole debate but they're part of it
-^isabella- whereas ana...u are on all the time
-MMM-A- I feel they're diffentiated enough so as to not be grouped with
the rest.
-^isabella- my cam time is only about 4 hours a nite... although i go
onto CUseeme during the day
-babette- what does that mean, that's it's less time? for you, i mean?
-^isabella- and have been known to go on while in my slip...just having
rolled out of bed..... isaunplugged
 -thingk- I dont expect anyone to perform 24/7
-[][p_p][]- But Ana wants to, Dave.
-ANA- your sight is about eroticism, basically, i think, isa
-^isabella- but CU is different for me
 -^isabella- yes ana... centered around eroticism
-ANA- and mine is about sleeping
-^isabella- not around me per se
-ANA- lol
-^isabella- lol.
-^isabella- !
-thingk- well performing is differnt than having it on
-[][p_p][]- Yeah. But ideally, you would like to have the cam on you all
the time, right Ana?
 -ANA- i do have the cam on me all the time
 -[][p_p][]- No you don't.
 -babette- flashback. warren and madonna.
 -^isabella- lol
-ANA- lol
-ANA- siam and i were talking about that scene
-[][p_p][]- We already had that conversation, babette :)
 -babette- i bet. sorry
 -^isabella- ana...have u ever done CUseeme?
-[][p_p][]- But you don't have it all the time.  You leave the apt, you
turn the cam away at times
-ANA- i meant BASICALLY....but yes i do want it on all the time
 -[][p_p][]- So, babette, I was talking about how Ana wants that to
change
-^isabella- i know people on CU who live on cam....
-[][p_p][]- She would like it to be on her all the time.
-babette- ana?
-ANA- yes?
 -babette- you down with that? what he just said? cause i 'd rather hear
it from you
-ANA- yes... i want it on always.... bigger faster more more more
-^isabella- that is where i differ from u ana...i couldn't have mine on
all the time
-ANA- document document
-[][p_p][]- And that's our current problem
-ANA- ya, isa, i know
 -babette- our?
-[][p_p][]- Our = Ana and Me, Babette.
-^isabella- maybe CU...but not my site cam
-babette- i see.
-[][p_p][]- I am not sure that I want all of my interaction and time
spent with Ana being capture on a cam.
-ANA- u r sure that you DO NOT want that
-[][p_p][]- At this point, yes.
-ANA- and i want to document it
-[][p_p][]- I don't have a problem, with Ana being on the cam, doing
whatever she wants at all.  It's just my being on the cam that I object
to.
 -^isabella- are u shy?  or is it another issue? or...
 -[][p_p][]- There are many issues. Some involve shyness, others involve
privacy. I don't want this to appear that I have a problem with what Ana
does. Because I don't. She knows that I would never, ever consider
telling her what to do with her life.
 siam would like to remain as mysterious as possible
-babette- yeah, i think i shot my load for now.
-babette- but, as i said at the beginning, i'm gonna write a paper on
this.. or two... so there'll be more yelling to come
-^isabella- lol
-MMM-A- Quite a spirited debate.
-^isabella- it wasn't yelling
 -babette- i was yelling. out loud. no kidding. but i like it... so no
worries
-^isabella- woo hoo   =)
-MMM-A- No...I'll bet some eyes were opened.
 a good debate is fun
-^isabella- it is a complicated issue
-ANA- yes
-^isabella- so many ways to branch out
-ANA- especially when u have a boyfriend :)
-^isabella- on the subject
-babette- exactly, isa, not to be solved by our big brains, for sure
 -^isabella- it is easy to get lost in little details
-ANA- yes,very
-^isabella- and big ones 2.. and communication-wise things can be so
confused
-ANA- extremely
 -babette- metareflection: also, i don't know how to deal nicely with
the kids who are in a different space than me
 so i get rude with them
-^isabella- by one's ideals, one's own definitions
-babette- and that makes me feel badly.
 -[][p_p][]- I know what you mean babette.
 -ANA- metareflection?
-babette- take a big step back... which we are now doing and look at the
terms of our debate... that's metareflection
-babette- we solved all the problems of spectatorship and celebrity  and
the net !