ANAGRAM110500

and many of the replies/discussions everyone had.

it took me so long to get all this in order...and it's still not really in an order...i know it's quite a mess..but if i were to fiddle with this more..i'd never get this done. i just need to get this up so i can move on to other things...altho i am still digesting all the discussions that have transpired and are still going on . i have pictures, too..but i'll get those up tomorrow. if u actually read this whole page in it's entirety, i will be very impressed!

Subject: You think Jenni is crazy! Take a look at what Ana(cam) is trying to do!
Date: 10/17/2000
Author: Ken <krm@dccnet.com>

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You know....I kinda though Ana was just a harmless kook but
after today I think she's right out of it.

She's trying to get her members to send her $1,000 each so she can buy a house. Hahahahahahahahahahahaha....get a fucking job!

---
Ana has very serious delusions as to how important she is in terms society, and how valuable her "thoughts" are, or her "art", etc..

For a 34 year old woman, Ana is one of the most immature and
narcissistic people I've ever run across. Get a job Ana. You are no better than the rest of the world, and most people have to work to earn what they get in life. (oh, that's right, Ana is *working* by living her life on cam, I forgot.)

PS. I also love the syncophants who tell her she deserves her dream house because, after all, "she IS Ana!" LOL
---
Ken,

Obviously she learned from Rev. Jim Baaker.

Bill
---
Is the Great Muse going to "call her home" if she doesn't get all the money raised? Maybe she learned the lesson from Oral Roberts instead?


---
All this leads to the question: If Oral Roberts saw a 900 foot Jesus in Tulsa, Oklahoma, what will Ana see?
---
900 feet? I thought it was 500 feet Jesus. There is a musician called MC 500 foot Jesus & Dennis Miller did a joke about it. He said Oral should take the medication & he'd be fine.

As far as what Ana might see... I don't know. Maybe a fucking clue? Naw, that would be too much like reality setting in for her. I'm sure her "send me a grand so I can buy a house" scheme will be on all the news shows or at least the e-zines & online papers.
---
Hey! It's about _art_ - real artists need people to buy them houses because they're so wrapped up in artistic levels of being so far beyond mere mortals who'd actually get a job to try to pay for a house. Now, let's all radiate
>>>>good vibes<<< and send {{{{{hugs}}}}} out there!

Don't be a materialistic dick, just send $1k to support art.
---
Just goes to show women have it so much easier in life. Show me one guy who can get women to send him $1,000 (and is living his life on cam, only off the cam profits). Just won't happen, where as women are spending their days showing us blue chairs or funky store supplies and get a ton of money. *Sigh*


---
That's just a stupid (incredibly) "grass is greener" sentiment. SOME women have it easier. Than whatever. Did I hear you say you're going to be the SECOND man to carry and child and give birth?

---

>> Forum: alt.fan.jennicam
>> Thread: Ana
>> Message 1 of 7
Save this thread

Subject: Ana
Date: 10/20/2000
Author: Karde <karde@nospam.nowhere.ca>

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From her live journal...

amen btripp, amen!
god bless the anaverse :)
i am so thankful for our community
so thankful that i cannot describe it.
u are all such wonderful beings!
i am the luckiest person in the world to be able to be a part of something like that :)

Translation: I'm so glad there are people who send me money to play with dolls.

Start of list of better things for a 'Net community to spend $1,000 for....

1) Support of organizations that stop the banning of free speech on the Internet
2) Support for better internet access to the poor and down trodden (like Free China websites)
3) Lobbying to get the election process in <insert country here> improved
4) A shelter for the homeless (think what ana's Million [1,000 people x $1,000] could buy in most cities to put a roof of the homeless' heads) 5) Buying Jenni a clue
6) ...


When I read it, "anaverse" made me laugh out loud. Honestly, LiveJournal for the cam-girls is probably the best comedy going - I'm finding Howard Stern in mp3 (where I can skip the commercials w/2 clicks) good, but LiveJournal's better.

---
:)

Some more punctuation- and grammar-free tripe from the new leader in webcam stupidity....
---
I have to give Jenni credit. The stuff she writes is crap, but at least she puts forth enough effort to use proper capitalization, grammar and punctuation. If Ana was any lazier she would be in a coma.

---
It's pretty sad when you actually start giving Jenni credit, it shows how truly shallow Ana is.
---
.

coma, comma - it's all the same in the anaverse!
---
Jenni had better do something very silly pretty soon or ana's gonna get all of her poo.

---

>> Forum: alt.fan.jennicam
>> Thread: I just posted a new message to Ana - we'll see if it gets toasted
>> Message 1 of 3
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Subject: I just posted a new message to Ana - we'll see if it gets toasted
Date: 10/20/2000
Author: Corolla Guy <james_hamil@excite.com>

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Hi,

I've made a few posts to this group, and I just wanted to introduce myself. I've been watching (never paid a membership) JenniScam for almost 4 years in which time I've noticed the slowly progressing downward spiral. Now that this Ana thing is taking place, it's confirmed my suspicions about delusions of grandeur happening with these two.

My posting name on Ana's journal is wolfey892. The last 4 messages I've posted were taken off in about an hours time.

Mike


---

>> Forum: alt.fan.jennicam
>> Thread: AnaMusic
>> Message 1 of 24
Save this thread

Subject: AnaMusic
Date: 10/20/2000
Author: Ludwig <jonni@jalmedia.comdontsendspam>

<< previous · next in thread >>

All of this talk about AnaCam made me go check out her site (still not a subscriber, but there's not a doubt that she's much more talented and interesting than old poopyhead Jenni).

Now I understand where the whole Jenni being jealous of Ana comes from. Comparing Jenni to Ana is like comparing a plate of Hamburger Helper to a filet mignon.

The point is this: I do like her music. Very much.

My question, if anyone knows (and Ana, since you admit that you read here, why not just answer this burning question):

Ana, why are you messing around with the cam? Why aren't you pounding on doors to get a music contract with a label? I honestly believe that you have the talent to go places.

Ludwig.


---
I agree---she has a lot of talent and even comparing her to Jenni is doing Ana a disservice. I just think Ana should get something in the works---make some money---and *then* go house hunting.
---
I don't care for the whole narcissistic ana.com webcam shit, and I was pessimistic, but...wow...she's really got some actual musical talent! I'm impressed.

The three tracks I've downloaded (so far):

'Shine' - hard to describe....kinda early-era Sinead-y. Nice vocal work!

'Spoons For Seven' - very reminiscent of Pink Floyd founder Syd Barrett's 'Word Song' (add a dash of 'Astronomy Domine'), both in guitar work and lyric structure.

'Breathe You Out' - an aggressive rocker. Nearest comparison vocally is kinda Alanis-esque, but more interesting and complex vocal layering.

Ana: get outta the apartment and start shopping this stuff around - it's really good, and I know I'd definitely buy the CDs. This is good shit - stop wasting time with the web cam
---
Alot of the songs available for DL on her website are from her days with the band "The Blue Up". They are out of print now, from what I have heard. Ana says that the record company "owns" them & she really doesn't get anything from them. She does have CD of her own, and there should be a link to her latest (called anavoog.com BTW) CD somewhere in the anamusiq section of the website.
---
Y'know what? Maybe she's too lazy to go anywhere, tour, be "what it takes", which reminds me of someone else...
---
Maybe Ana is just scared----and I don't mean oooooh, you are such a chicken baby pants kind of scared----I mean the kind of anxiety that forces some people to shun society and all it offers (like getting out and marketing herself) and instead choose to shrink their universe to their own mind---and maybe a few close people who agree with them.
---
Maybe, esp. if she's really taking the med cocktail mentioned in another thread.

I'm just genuinely sorry to see such talent being hidden away in an apartment with some webcams.
---
NOT a precise formula for success, n'est ce pas?
I'm rather introverted myself, but this doesn't make sense: she's narcissistic and artistic- how does she differ from someone like, say, Syd Barrett? Syd still gets his royalty checks, and I'm glad to say he's gotten some of MY money.
---
Answer - She's too damn lazy.

---
Precisely. What other reason *could* there be? Think about it- she's asking for folks to BUY HER a goddamned HOUSE. What this tells me is that she's approaching her mid-30s, and doesn't have the NRG and drive to go out, tour, record, deal with agents and managers. She kinda
inner-directed, but in a narcissistic kinda way. She wants you to accept her exactly as she is - and buy her a fucking house.

---
She had a contract but, according to her, after to took the advance and got breast implants (something she always wanted, because she was flat chested), the label dropped her because she no longer and the male/female look that they thought was her appeal. That's what she wrote somewhere, anyway. Seeing as how record labels suck (on par w/radio in terms of the sleaze factor), it's probably true.

I haven't downloaded her songs (now that I've got DSL, I'll give it a shot), but if she's talented, maybe she should try selling _that_. W/the exposure and 'net presence she's got, maybe add some kind if independant "internet label" for herself and other artists. Afterall, isnt' the _exposure_ the big issue w/'net bands? She's got it, it might be a good fit. I mean really, how much can it cost to add ecommerce-able downloads or somsuch to her website? She's already got an established site, understands the technology and seems in touch w/the music scene.-

---
Wow - a label dropping a recording artist because she GOT breast implants? That's gotta be a first!

I downloaded a few of her songs some months ago and really liked them. If I'm not mistaken, though, they were old - 10 years or so - and made me wonder whether she's done much musically since.

People have spoken about Jenni squandering her potential, but she's probably already risen beyond her mediocre talents. ana, however, is frittering hers away with her webcam wankery.
---
Ok, let's for AFJ the Internet Production company. We'll raise some VC and start producing CD's, suing napster, maybe even spread into films. Send me $5,000 and I'll send you a afj mug and a life time of AFJ label musicians' cds.

---
I'd like to mention that *I'm* unsigned as well.... and I used to be the "President" of a record label!

---
I recall Ana saying that her latest CD (Ana Voog: anacam.com) is available at Amazon.com. Maybe she should try to promote herself on Napster, since she has just discovered the joys of that place. Maybe she should contact one of the internet based record companies like you mention. She has talent, if she could match that with the drive to get her CDs sold she'd have the money for that condo she wants.

---
"Could". "Should". HINT: she doesn't care enough. ANA, you're OLD, you're WASHED UP, baby! :>I
---
The music business is one where you have to tour constantly and network within the industry. It is a 24/7 job. Like most artists who want to be given money and fame with little effort. There are no overnight success stories most of those who are able to make a living off their material are those who do the work. Having a label, agent, investor, behind you helps but only goes so far. If Ana wants to make it, she has to get out of the house.
---
Internet-based record companies!?!?!?

She's got a well-designed site (although a bit graphics-heavy, IMHO) and probably attracts more visitors and is better known than any "internet" record company. Last I heard, popular mp3.com artists were getting a couple bucks a year, effectively getting screwed worse than by "regular" record companies.
---
I meant a traditional record company that happens to have a web
prescence. I don't remember the name, but it's being run by the lead singer who was in 4 Non Blondes. Obviously she isn't having enough prescence from her site alone if she isn't able to buy that house without this idea.
---
Ditto here, and I actually might have bought one - because the music is good and I honestly don't mind supporting a worthwhile artist.

---
No, neither do I.

Is this what happens when good artists self medicate?

---
It isn't self medication, it's bring out her art! Just like the native american tribes that smoked funny weeds to bring forth the spirts and voices...

---
Good artist? even that is questionable, have you seen the words to one of her songs?
song by ana voog

Hollywood

Hollywood I'm moving
If I could be a star for you come for me
I'll be in the screening room for you baby kissing you like it's real
Hollywood I'm reeling

If I could be a film for you project on me I'll be the girl on the other side honey
reflect on me I'll be the scene that blows up the sky honey burning up like it's real

I'm moving in hollywood

I'll meet you on the other side


yeah, i had to laugh too..

---
Yeah... what a pity! I frankly don't give a rat's ass about titties, myself... it's fine if they got 'em and all, but I look at a LOT of other things first.
I've been in love with this woman for a long, long time, and a friend told me she had "pretty nice tits". I said, "hmmm. REALLY? I never LOOKED!" TRUTH!
---
Subject: As an artist....
Date: 10/21/2000
Author: RedTango <redtango@primenet.com>

<< previous · next in thread >>

Off the Jenni subject, but interesting none the less because it raises the issue of how/why art is derived.


I am an artist myself, and I happen to make a living off it. I also do art for my own personal enjoyment.
I dont have a problem with artists selling their work to make a living. I think art is both valuable when given freely and when paid for. I dont have a problem with artists saving up $$$ to buy a home. I did.

For instance, I recently wanted to buy something that was a little expensive, so i took on some freelance artwork which took a month to complete in my spare time. Then I got the check and bought what I wanted.

Ana seems willing to do the same thing, but there is something different about her approach. There is a charity aspect to how she approaches her goal...listing the breakdown, devising the "plan" on how to get the money, and all the stuff you will get if you send her the $$$. It seems forced. You can't approach your audience and ask them to help you buy a home. People purchase art when inspired to do so, and, in my case, I go out and offer my artistic skills when I want some extra $$$ but I dont tell my employer to give me a certain amount of work because I want to buy a house and this is how much I need and how much they should give me.

Now, purely my own bias...I happen to like Ana's site, its cool artistically. The stuff she is offering for the $1000..not worth it. Polaroids...tapes...stuffed animals in the mail....what is this, renting a friend for a year or something? And a glossy magazine? She must not know much about publishing and the costs involved.
The kicker is the "one hour video of me talking about what I am thinking that moment and whats's going on in my life or giving a tour of my apartment"...wow. I'd give money NOT to have to watch that.

It's a free country, and more power to her if she actually pulls it off. But I think I will pass on the years supply of stuffed animals and videotaped walks around the block.

There seems to be this culture of people who are willing to do anything but a 9 to 5 job to reach their goals. If you are willing and disiplined, an artist can buy a home and support themselves, but it takes a bit more than sending doodles to people in the mail. Gads, if it were only that easy!

---

>> Forum: alt.fan.jennicam
>> Thread: ana: "i am so happy right now, it's ridiculous...
>> Message 1 of 8
Save this thread

Subject: ana: "i am so happy right now, it's ridiculous...
Date: 10/20/2000
Author: Jeff <Gumper30@hotmail.com>

<< previous · next in thread >>

i wish i could be like this all the time."


Keep those thousands rolling in, folks! We want ana like this ALL the time!!

---
From Ana's BBS:

Someone writes (defending Ana's pandering for money against people 'bashing' her):
>>>Live and let live, period. anything negative is nothing but jealousy anyway,
even i am jealous, but it does not make me condemn her, it makes me feel more motivated to do something with my talent. so all you people bashing her for ANYthing, why not take that hate and turn it toward yourself because that is where it truely lies anyway and do something that will make your hate and jealousy vanish and be replaced by success and pride and happy feelings, like getting off your asses and doing something to better yourself and your life instead of sitting on a comp cutting down a stranger.<<<

I find especially humorous the line about people getting off their asses and bettering themselves and their lives instead of sitting at a computer, since this discussion is directly related to Ana. Maybe she should follow that advice herself and get off her own ass, and better herself and her so-called 'life'.

In response to this, Thee Fairy Queen (retch..how old is she again??) says:
>>>yes! be INSPIRED not jealous!!! :)
there's enough pie for everyone :)<<<

Yeah, Ana. Enough pie that other people provide FOR you. Maybe Ana should go bake her own pie before she starts in with the cutesy comebacks.

(BTW, Ana...I'm hardly jealous of a 34 year old so-called woman, who lives a slacker, empty life and begs for money via the internet, and who has to rely daily on about 40 different kinds of drugs just to be "happy". Ana claims she gives back to the world through her art - all I see is a sad, empty, immature woman who relies on constant asskissing by her groupies to feel good about herself, who can't support herself without begging for money, and whose 'art' is nothing but an extension of her narcissism. No, I am not jealous of Ana. I am disgusted and amused, but that's about it.
---
EXCEPT for those YUCKY homeless folks, that smell bad, and are
delusional, y'know? ;)
--
YES! We want Ana to go on to become a Real Estate Empress, with a host of houses she didn't pay a stinking CENT for!

Now THAT'S art!
---
."

WELL... so NOBODY told you that the Acid wears off after 7 hours or so, ANA? Just take another one and watch for the flashing red lights and the drooling clown faces...
---

>> Forum: alt.fan.jennicam
>> Thread: Ana angry @ AFJ?
>> Message 1 of 41
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Subject: Ana angry @ AFJ?
Date: 10/19/2000
Author: Christopher Zguris <czguris@SPAM-ME-NOTchristopherzguris.com>

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Amazing how people "just see" stuff here - I think the cam girls are all lurkers to AFJ.


---
Of course cam girls read the posts. The funny thing is, they will go looking for comments and more specifically, personal insults, then become terribly hurt, confused, upset, etc when they actually find what the are looking for.

Cynthia
---
poor poor Ana. Let's see for $1,000 you get 12 pictures, a newsletter (x12), and a video of her talking for a year. She will limit it to 1,000 people (1,000 x $1,000 = a nice ONE MILLION!!) . Well for $1,000 i would want more then little poloroids, and a better return on the investment then what's being offered (pictures that fade, and prints of what's already on her site) Then again, maybe I just don't understand her "art".
More power to her though if she finds people to pay.
---
Listen, listen: it's about _art_ dammit! Those aren't polaroids, they're _art_ by a 'net-famous artist. When I read "I MUST HAVE THIS HOUSE" and then "send me $1,000" I nearly fell off my chair.

What sort of self-absorbed, reality-free life does one live in to make such an obnoxious statement? Better yet, how does one develope a sense of reality where they're not embarrassed as hell to even make such a statement?
----
new required reading for AFJ - Heart of Darkness by Joesph Conrad

---
Hey Mister Literati: how does it apply, and please tell us what country it's set in, and what country it is now.

---
the thoughts you have and the reactions you have to stimuli only seem crazy based on what your surroundings are and have been.

ie. Kurtz appears nutso to the people getting his regular shipments of product. but 2 others who have taken the same journey as kurtz
eventually come to the same conclusions he has. crazy is relative.

Captain Willard would appear to us to be out of his mind when he shoots the wounded innocent lady on the boat the searched on the river (this from Apocalypse Now). but in the reality that was vietnam, it was necessary to his task.

what i was trying to get at is, when people fodder over you, and call you a goddess, and pay to see you 24/7, it would be pretty easy to get to a place where asking $100.00 dollars for a concert ticket (EAGLES), $100.00 for an autograph (OJ), or $1000.00 for her art doesn't seem so ridiculous.

what does it matter what country it takes place in?
---
Hell, for $1000 bucks, Ana better be prepared to bend over -- and I don't mean to pick up my check!
---
No question about it! I'd expect a PERSONAL visit for the weekend, and she'd better bring her leather knee boots!
---
When they imagine themselves as "artists" and not regular people. For instance, all the regulars here are regular people, except for Flagg, who is a highly irregular person.
---
I guess lucky for her, the people that would actually send her money for this would land on that 95% stupid beyond comprehension.

---
I've posted quite a few replies to things in her journals and she has censored (removed) every single one. It's amazing how these cam girls see a little bit of criticism (sp?) and instantly shut it out, just in case any of their followers happen to read it and get a clue. I think these girls (I would never consider them women) are realizing that their days are numbered.
---
Author: Laurie <not@here.com>

<< previous in thread · next in thread >>

Ehem. Not ALL Cam 'girls' are like this... some of us have class, you know...

=)

----
You're right. You, Andi and Courtney, to name just a few. But why is it that all the "big-name" cam girls (Ana, Jenni,etc.) are such reality-challenged wackos?

---
Author: Laurie <not@here.com>

<< previous in thread · next in thread >>

Popularity... Fame... It goes to your head.. and then you start to do stupid things to maintain "status-quo"

I'm not a popular camgirl, don't want to be. I have a full time job away from home, and a full time job (being a mom) when I get home. My cam is as close to a life cam as you can get.. lol.. See me, passed out on the couch after a long day...
I'm not trying to use my cam to make me rich, or get me out of work. I do have links on my site that, when clicked, bring in some revenue. (if you call $50 per 3 months revenue..lol) It helps pay for my internet connection.
I do this for fun and will never compromise my morals or standards for anything. Something that, unfortunately, other camgirls have resorted to.

Kind of sad, huh?

=)

---
?

Yeah. Real sad. And no less sad for being so predictable.

The arrogance and sense of entitlement shown by Jenni and ana seems baffling, but maybe it shouldn't. They've been able to support themselves by charging strangers for the priviledge of tuning into their so-called lives. Hell, if I had a thousand subscribers watching me pick my nose, I might even roll it in a ball and call it art.

It's a wonder, and a reassurance, that there are still so many neat-o camgurls doing this as a hobby, no charge. I haven't seen your site, Laurie, but I'm grateful for it and the dozens of honest sites by honest women who do it for fun and not for a living. Gabgab, Courtney, Andih, Addie (come back soon!), keep on keeping on.
---
TERRIBLE. ;>I
---
Sorry, I did the "Ana" thing and assumed 95% of cam-girls are self-absorbed, distanced-from-reality slackers.

What's the address of your site? It would be nice to see a decent, classy, web-girl
---
One decent, classy web-girl coming up.

www.kittchia.com
or... for more cams..
http://manimal.tdp.net

Warning: Boring as hell.


=)

---
Exactly. ;) I would -hate- to be judged by the actions of a few. I kind of doubt Ana will get many takers on her offer... but I just can't see myself spending $1000 on ANY art, much less ana's (err, no offense to her). *shrugs*

-hollybear
---
I just this moment posted a rant on this very topic:
http://www.robotwisdom.com/issues/psych.html

(for 'rec.arts.books' read afj)
---
How thoroughly unoriginal. And full of shit. Just like Ana and Jenni, you think that anyone who has an opinion that you don't like is "stupid and cruel".

---
No, it just the other 5% have "God complexes" and can't understand how the other 95% would dare to speak out on the stupidity of their ideas.
If you can find people who are willing to cough up that kind
of money , more power to you. I can just think of a thousand better ways than to spend it on a cam girl. Contributing to a charity would be one way...and you get to write it off your taxes.

-John

---
well i gotta agree with ana on this. i find it amazing how stupid 95% of the population is. (how much money did aol and webtv make last year?)

but i also must agree with you

i like my artists starving. it keeps them real and gives them a sense of passion.

----
No arguement there. I'm in Manhattan, in the heart of the fashion district, and the stupidity of a large percentage of the population (moreso in the fashion & modelling industry) amazes me.

Examples -
1 single door (wide enough for one person) for a deli, model buys cigarettes, and does what?
a. Exit the store since it lunch time, in midtown Manhattan, and there are 20 people who also want to pay and leave.
b. Stand still, fumble w/change and in general block checkout & door because nobody else in the deli (or world in general) matters.

2) Model opens door to leave bank and:
a. Leaves self-absorbed world for a sec, joins the rest of us, and actually looks to see if there's anyone _else_ in front, walking, who they'd walk into should they walk without looking.
b. Merges w/the flow of pedestrians like any normal person.

Walking in midtown is a daily exercise in watching the truly stupid of humanity (having steel-toed combat boots & outweighing most models helps, though). Maybe I'm jaded, I see art all the time here in NYC, so I don't need to import $1k polaroid pictures from MN or wherever.

---
And unfortunately (depending how you see it), there will be
people who will shell out the cash. I'm sure that if Jenni put out the call for $1,000.00 donations, blind sheep like Josh would be the first to pull out the check book.
---
ana lacking in passion?!? have you listened to her music?
---
Yeah. I wouldn't say ana's lacking passion. What she's missing is a world beyond her anaverse. That, and a new shift key.

---
The only people who are stupid beyond my comprehension are those who would pay $1,000 for the crap she offered to send them.
---
Oh wow....my 15 minutes of fame....I pissed her off.

Get a job.....get a life!
---
yeah...those wacky camgirls and their amazin' journals.

i especially like the bits about sleeping till late pm and bein' up all night and how depressed they are and havin' to take this pill or the other and how tough life is and how money is short and all the rest of the adolescent whining.

they just don't get it.
---
Personally, my life is on hold until Charity can get a decent nights' sleep. I'm having sympathy-insomnia, where _I'm_ up all night as well. I'm beginning to feel a little guilty, since my pacing & constant LiveJournal medical checks are really tough on my dog since I keep waking him up.

Please, can everyone send {{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}} to my dog who can't seem to get a decent nights' sleep thanks to me? Better yet, can everyone send $1k so I can buy him his own space? I'm beginning to see bags under his (furry) eyes... Jesus, this is bad.
---
Dear Ana and Jenni,

The innocence is gone. We all liked you before. We worried about you, smiled when you did something, felt good when you succeeded, and cheered you in every bit of noteriety. Some of us believed you when you said you needed the money for bandwidth costs. Now, however, we see you are not what we thought you were. Now, we see you are in it for the money. If someone wants to pay you that kind of money, then more power to them but there is a high price to pay for it. We will never trust everything you write or do without skepticism. You can no longer manipulate us into believing that this isn't for the money. You have blown the illusion.

Enjoy whatever cash you get.
---
Author: Goolia <goolia6@hotmail.com>

<< previous in thread · next in thread >>

Very well put---I like the way you summed it all up.

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Remember the good old days when a picture was only worth a thousand words?

---
Amen!

---
Why is it called tourist season if we can't shoot at them?

---

Subject: ------>>>> October 21, 2000 is Ana Day!
Date: 10/21/2000
Author: John Robertson <jdctexas@nospamyahoo.com>

<< previous · next in thread >>

Drop off an email at anacam@camgirl7.com and let her know that for a $1,000.00, you'd put some dice in an orifice and call it art too!

Sorry...could't resist since she's SO fixated on AFJ right now.

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LOL! Good one John.
She is fixated, isn't she? Odd, since unless I've missed it, she hasn't posted here for a while.
---
Yah, she's in Read Only mode. The Artsy Fartsy type make me wanna puke.

---
frankly, i love the artsy fartsy type. they hold their passions like no other.

however that "pay and then i will create" mode reeks more of materialism then art

---
You meant, "materialism, THEN art", didn't you?
She always cracks me up ;D when she tries to be serious.

I think the "ART" that will keep her afloat is either in music or comedy.
---

>> Forum: alt.fan.jennicam
>> Thread: Ana and her art
>> Message 1 of 70
Save this thread

Subject: Ana and her art
Date: 10/21/2000
Author: Karde <karde@nospam.nowhere.ca>

<< previous · next in thread >>

When will Ana have time to make all this art, she's too busy keeping up with all the posts here, moes, and on her site ;-)


---

I would also question the reliability/stability of someone who takes (according to journal entry Oct 14th) a combination of xanax, amitriptoline, neurontin, seroquel, prozac and doxepin. Is she serious? What psychiatrist would prescribe all these? Perhaps they have been given to her over the years and has accumulated a collection, and is trying to medicate herself by taking it all.
I am not judging her for being clinically depressed, I know people who are. But this drug cocktail she has amassed is alarming.

---
Who is taking this, Jenni or Ana???

These drugs indicate more than depression, perhaps bipolar or something else (could be a number of diagnoses).

In that mix are THREE antidepressants (Elavil, Doxepin and Prozac), an anticonvulsant which is used very commonly as a mood stabilizer in bipolar disorder (Neurontin), an anti anxiety that has a large
potential for abuse (Xanax) and an ANTIPSYCHOTIC (seroquel)

I also would question any psychiatrist who prescribed a cocktail such as this. And if she's playing around with self medication, she's playing with fire.

If you're a friend of this person (Ana or Jenni), get her some help now. Get a new psychiatrist for at least a second opinion about all these meds, or find out if she's just doing this on her own.

Someone needs to be concerned.

Ludwig.

---
Ana has mentioned in the past (either journal or her BBS, I don't remember) that the doctor she goes to is prescribing all that shit for her basically at her request because he's a friend or some such. Ana sees him every few months to get her Rx's refilled. Other than that, she is under no kind of treatment. It sounds very back alley, shady to me, and I am apalled at both the doctor's lack of ethics, and Ana's lack of sense to take all that crap. She has also mentioned that she's taken friend's meds before - it sounds basically like she takes whatever, whenever. Doesn't matter the source, the amount, the volume of meds, as long as it makes her feel 'happy.'
---
OF COURSE, Rottenburg the Flying Turd won't think anything awry with this, but my saying I took ONE Zoloft, just to see what a 14-year old fat girl goes through every day was tantamount to self-immolation. I won't touch one ever again, I know that... I don't enjoy being a zombie.
---
Bipolar would be my initial guess.
I'm afraid Ana will stab her boyfriend in the throat with a pair of scissors if she screws up this cocktail! HELL, no one ELSE comes to her place, do they?

---
Not wanting to piss anyone off (like lurker-mode Ana, perhaps), but I don't think staying inside all the time is good for ones' mental health. I think that's a nasty cycle to get into, and only makes things worse.
---
Maybe this is going to turn out to be a requirement for some who expose their live to the viewer the way ana does. remember they take their sites with great importance and center their lives around them as well as drawing a greater or lesser degrre of finacial return. You on the other hand see what you do as a mostly good matured send up of sites that take themselves with such importance, ergo you "relative sanity"

---
WHAT ARE: amitriptoline (I'm guessing an amino-acid derivative - I can guess what the "ami" is all about: something to make one more "sociable", in which case it fails miserably!)
neurotonin? a serotinin uptake inhibitor?
seroquel? same thing?

GAWD! this woman must be a neurological flatliner!
---
That's Elavil, an older antidepressant (pre-prozac)

> neurotonin? a serotinin uptake inhibitor?

An anti-convulsant, but also used a lot in bipolar (in place of
lithium). I think in some cases of depression they use it as a mood stabilizer, but primary use in psychiatry is bipolar disorder. (manic depression)

> seroquel? same thing?

No, that's an antipsychotic, and should only be used if a person is experiencing voices or hallucinations, or has paranoia or symptoms of psychosis.

If the idea of not taking drugs you don't need doesn't scare you, maybe vanity will.

These drugs cause massive weight gain in many people. Esp. the
antipsychotics.

They also can cause lethargy, and ruin the creative process. This would completely explain why Ana is not making anymore music.

I'm so sad for her to learn this. Just really sad.

---

>> Forum: alt.fan.jennicam
>> Thread: the Anaverse
>> Message 1 of 15
Save this thread

Subject: Re: the Anaverse
Date: 10/26/2000
Author: National Audio Visual Conservation Center <culpeper@erols.com>

<< previous · next in thread >>

"Diet Pez®" wrote:
>
> On Thu, 26 Oct 2000 04:54:03 GMT, armedforce@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> >
> >Below is the URL to her post. She says "this bbs has to be one of the
> >most negative places on earth. and her newsgroup is satanic."
> >
> >http://www.peepingmoe.com:6968/forums/jenni/index.cgi?read=42957
> >
> >
>
> This post look totally fake to me. The spelling and overall writing
> style is totally unlike anything else I've ever seen from Ana (i.e.,
> it's normal). And why would she use an e-mail address of
> "camgrrl@hotmail.com"?
>
> I think Moe's was trolled and they're too stupid to know the
> difference.

I agree. That's not Ana - she wouldn't publicly say some of those things about jenii. It's almost "satanic".

---
Well, if you had read further in the thread, Ana explains how that first part was her cutting & pasting the post she was replying to. Ana's post beings with "well I can completely understand". The preceeding part is my post that Ana was answering. So, she wasn't slamming Jenni, even though she says she understands that Jenni doesn't want much for interaction from her public. (except for that money of course)
---
Yes that's the word!!! This Newsgroup is Satanic!!! Of Course!
---
As Ana herself points out, she accidently put some of his text into her post.

Ana writes more carefully when posting to forums other than her own. Her Peeping-Moe posts are consistent with her usual stuff.

She is known to use numerous e-mail addresses. camgrrl@hotmail.com IS one of hers.

You are too specialized, in the ways of the Jenii. Time to diversify.
---

>> Forum: alt.fan.jennicam
>> Thread: Question for Ana
>> Message 1 of 5
Save this thread

Subject: Question for Ana
Date: 10/29/2000
Author: Karde <karde@nospam.nowhere.ca>

<< previous · next in thread >>

Since she reads this...

Why is it you think everyone hates women and abuses them one way or another?

---
Good question. I'm not ana but I'd love to answer this. I think it's really lame when people who may or may not have been victimized start thinking in those ways. I am sure she does not think that every man is a womanizer or a victimizer, but from what I have seen, she takes totally unrelated comments and turns them into some form of rape, molestation, or abusive comment. It's disgusting. I have been victimized myself, but I am not one of those people who if someone says "Bend over so I can give you your check" I freak out like someone is threatening to rape me. I understand the difference between a joke and a serious threat. When you live in the real world you can't think in a victimized way. If you think all day about how you have been abused it just makes you more of a target. The only way to stop thinking about it and to stop it from happening to you is to stop making naive comments about how men victimize women so often. You have to make yourself stronger than that. Abuse happens, there are all sorts of domestic violence cases out there, but I cannot even tell you how many guys are beaten up by psycho girlfriends/ex-girlfriends who do not report it (because of embarassment). And often times it's mental abuse, which can be just as damaging. Women are very good at mental abuse. They can chip away at a guy's soul until there is nothing left. They can be manipulators just as equally as men. Sometimes I think that these women who cry "rape" at joke comments are just as manipulative as some of the guy victimizers I have encountered. They really have you believing they have been victimized. I'm sorry to all the women out there that have been truly abused, as I said before, I've been in an abusive/victimizing relationship, but you really have to move past it. That's the only way to protect yourself in the future. Girls who cry wolf give the truly victimized a bad reputation. They make it harder for true rape victims to prove their cases in court. Trust me, I've got firsthand experience in it.

Just my .02 on it...
-kat

---
Well, I was going to respond to Karde...but Kat did it better. Well done!
:)
Andi

---
I couldn't think of anything to add either. And not for a lack of trying. =)
--
---
Amanda Hugnkiss
---

>> Forum: alt.fan.jennicam
>> Thread: Ana wanting to get preggers?
>> Message 1 of 4
Save this thread

Subject: Ana wanting to get preggers?
Date: 10/29/2000
Author: Ken <krm@dccnet.com>

<< previous · next in thread >>

What do you think, as kookie as she is will she make a good mother?

Even though I think she's a bit of a loon I get the feeling she may make a good mother.

Why only a girl though. Is she really that much of a man hater?

---
Ken wrote:
>
> What do you think, as kookie as she is will she make a good mother?

The kid would probably survive better then in Jenni's house, but it all depends on what you mean by good.

> Even though I think she's a bit of a loon I get the feeling she may
> make a good mother.

The neighborhood kids would all like her, they can down load nude pics (excuse me, art) and have great fantasies about her. She'd probably even let them do drugs at her house so they don't get busted by their parents.

> Why only a girl though. Is she really that much of a man hater?
She's not a man hater, she just doesn't want to have a male child, becasuse all men hate and abuse women.

Last I knew of biology though, it was the sperm that decided sex, nothing the woman did. All a woman's eggs are possible girls, it depends on the chromosome of the sperm, not hormones. If you want a girl, go to the lab and have them whip one up and plant it inside
---
weeellll, there is research that shows that a woman can produce conditions in her body that will favour male or female sperm from making it the distance. There are stats that show when there is a depletion of one sex in a society, that will women will bear more children of the depleted sex. (like war for instance, and the male population drops, women will have more boy babies) freaky man!
---
It certainly bodes ill for a boy if she ever has one. Imagine realizing, one day, that your mother hates you because you're male. Kids are smart enough to pick up on that pretty early.

---

> Given the string of drugs she ingests routinely, my vote is no.
>
> I get the feeling that if she dopes up on half the handfuls of pills she
> dopes up on today while she's carrying a child the baby will be brain
> damaged.
>
> Note, that like the rest of her troubles, she believes popping mounds of
> pills that she has a "hunch" will help (in this case, estrogen) might
> "fix" things.
>
> Very sad. Very scary.

EXTREMELY scary... As a 'survivor' of post-partum depression (and no, its not just the baby blues, folks), someone who ingests those drugs already has a problem... Having a child will not make things better - It will make them worse. I shudder to think of what might happen...
----
Not to mention the effect those meds will have on the baby as it is developing in the womb if she would continue to take them after getting knocked up.
----

>Why only a girl though. Is she really that much of a man hater?


Apparently. By twisting virtually any situation into misogyny, she makes opportunities to lord it over men, while clinging to a selfless faerie facade.

Ana laughs on the phone, with her mom, at how little sex her boyfriend (Jason/Fetik3/Creature) gets. That doesn't sound like a mutually fulfilling relationship with which to start a family.

She has not announced any family plans, of course.
---
If ana has a boy, it's possible she may come to see we're not all bad. Of course, if she thinks only her son is decent, than that should another fine psychological mess.

And imagine growing up around all those creepy mannikins :)
-------
Nope - all men suck. If she has a kid, and it's a boy, she needs to make him understand that men all suck.

>Of course, if she thinks only her son is decent, than that should
>another fine psychological mess.


Disagreed 100%. Just look at Cathy Lee (still Gifford?), _her_ kids are the bestest, cutest, most wonderful, best behaving, super-acting, wonderful little cootchy-woo woos out there. "Cody - sing the goddamned christmas song, damned you! SING!!!! And smile, you're supposed to be HAPPY!!"

>And imagine growing up around all those creepy mannikins :)

-----

is she pregnent?

---
Posted by Chris - 209-122-217-96.s96.tnt1.atn.pa.dialup.rcn.com (209.122.217.96) on November 05, 2000 at 11:16:27:

In Reply to: is ana pregnent? posted by chris on November 04, 2000 at 23:12:32:

If she is (and I for one have no idea) really what business is it of yours to ask?

If she is and wants to tell you/us, that's okay. But to ask someone who lives so much of their life under the
lens, it strikes me as a little impolite.
---
Posted by serendipity - ts012d13.sjc-ca.concentric.net (206.173.236.73) on November 05, 2000 at 11:12:29:

In Reply to: is ana pregnent? posted by chris on November 04, 2000 at 23:12:32:

If you want to know, why don't you ask her directly, rather than use 'Ana' in the third person and ask everyone else on her bbs their opinion? If Ana wants us to know if she is or she isn't, she'll tell us. Since she hasn't yet, I suspect she's getting a chuckle out of the question you posed and the responses it's generating. But, really, why bother speculating?

---
Posted by sj - s216-232-10-124.bc.hsia.telus.net (216.232.10.124) on November 05, 2000 at 10:36:35:

In Reply to: is ana pregnent? posted by chris on November 04, 2000 at 23:12:32:

things sometimes look much different on cam than they appear in real life.

is it really any of our business to speculate on this? i don't think so.

---
Re: would guess early to mid second trimester

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ Follow Ups ] [ Post Followup ] [ Ana Voog Fan BBS ] [ FAQ ]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by angelicus - 209-209-65-191.la.inreach.net (209.209.65.191) on November 05, 2000 at 10:54:04:

In Reply to: please don't jump to any conclusions... posted by sj on November 05, 2000 at 10:36:35:

Being a nurse, this is not a sausage problem. I think it's great though and it isn't any of my business I agree but just an observation on a public portal.
Posted by Keith - (216.63.220.75) on November 05, 2000 at 08:41:48:

In Reply to: is ana pregnent? posted by chris on November 04, 2000 at 23:12:32:

Here is a phot I captured last night..
You be the judge..
http://www.warpedvinyl.com/anapreg.jpg
---
Posted by Keith - (216.63.220.75) on November 05, 2000 at 07:29:04:

In Reply to: is ana pregnent? posted by chris on November 04, 2000 at 23:12:32:

I had the same thought last night when i looked at the cam and her belly was exposed. Its odd, she went from having only a slight pooch in her tummy, to looking very prego indeed. I don't think its possible to happen all that quickly, like overnight. Could be that there is another problem "monthly bloating". Either way I don't think its good for Ana. Hey maybe she just had some really good sausage and she can't fart......
---
Posted by Violet - ppp-206-170-210-43.lsan03.pacbell.net (206.170.210.43) on November 05, 2000 at 10:30:11:

In Reply to: If she is........... posted by Keith on November 05, 2000 at 07:29:04:

Good Sausage? and she can not fart! come on that is too much
Posted by blonnie - (207.199.148.227) on November 05, 2000 at 07:42:37:

In Reply to: If she is........... posted by Keith on November 05, 2000 at 07:29:04:

well i certainly hope it is monthly matters or pregnancy..because if i were her & i came on here to see a string about me being pregnant & i certainly wasn't..i would be -very- upset.
--
Posted by TinkAlicious - spider-tr013.proxy.aol.com (152.163.201.178) on November 05, 2000 at 07:25:05:

In Reply to: is ana pregnent? posted by chris on November 04, 2000 at 23:12:32:

it's "pregnant"

--
Posted by disbelief - spider-tf054.proxy.aol.com (152.163.197.199) on November 05, 2000 at 06:50:57:

In Reply to: is ana pregnent? posted by chris on November 04, 2000 at 23:12:32:

Oh no! What if she has a BOY!?!? Yikes! Poor little guy...

---
Posted by hellnation - ch7smc.bellglobal.com (206.47.244.57) on November 05, 2000 at 09:30:43:

In Reply to: Re: is ana pregnent? posted by disbelief on November 05, 2000 at 06:50:57:

that was a REALLY STUPID thing to say!!!!!!!!! i think ana would be a wonderful mother REGARDLESS
of the childs sex. people must learn to stop brain farting while on the computer......

---
Posted by disbelief - (62.254.162.241) on November 05, 2000 at 06:32:23:

In Reply to: is ana pregnent? posted by chris on November 04, 2000 at 23:12:32:

I sure hope she stops taking all those drugs.

That would guarantee a messed up baby.

---
Posted by dm - ce-4.pp.htv.fi (212.90.64.70) on November 05, 2000 at 02:58:35:

In Reply to: is ana pregnent? posted by chris on November 04, 2000 at 23:12:32:

if she was would she not be worried
about her medication and the fact
she has silicone breasts.

but she does look beautiful.
--
Posted by goofygrape - tnt1-1-142.phoenix.goodnet.com (209.54.248.142) on November 05, 2000 at 01:26:26:

In Reply to: is ana pregnent? posted by chris on November 04, 2000 at 23:12:32:

maybe she is drinking a lot of beer?

:|

goofy
---
Posted by TinkAlicious - spider-tr013.proxy.aol.com (152.163.201.178) on November 05, 2000 at 07:23:15:

In Reply to: Re: is ana pregnent? posted by goofygrape on November 05, 2000 at 01:26:26:

that would do it
Posted by angelicus - 209-209-65-96.la.inreach.net (209.209.65.96) on November 05, 2000 at 01:45:30:

In Reply to: Re: is ana pregnent? posted by goofygrape on November 05, 2000 at 01:26:26:

congrats...ana
Posted by dankitti - PPPa35-ResalePrinceton1-4R7300.saturn.bbn.com (4.48.153.128) on November 05, 2000 at 05:48:26:

In Reply to: Re: that sure looks the tummy of a Mommy to be posted by angelicus on November 05, 2000 at 01:45:30:

are you sure it's ana who is pregnant? maybe ana & jason were inspired by the website of the first pregnant male & they decided that jason should carry the baby. that would be intereseting.

http://www.malepregnancy.com/
---

In article <g0790tco1l1t7bcse34pmi1r9ivn0h1s8n@news.dexcam.com>, The Artist Formerly Known as Poopy Head® <poopyhead@jennicam.i-p.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 04 Nov 2000 14:04:45 -0600, Ludwig
> <jonni@jalmedia.comdontsendspam> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Is her male bashing genuine male bashing, or she's just a feminist?
>
> What's the difference?

I'm a feminist and believe in equal rights for women. Why is that male bashing?

On the flip side, I did go look at some of the links Ana posted
concerning men's rights, and I thought it was odd that a site on circumcision was anti women.



---
There is a subtle (but distinct) difference between being pro-women's rights & anti-male. It can be a fine line to walk, but I see nothing wrong with women wanting equal rights. But when the line is crossed that the equality comes at the supression of another's rights then I feel that is wrong. (in any application whether it be male/female, straight/gay, or white/ethnic relations)
I have been under the impression (and if I'm wrong then Ana should make her position less vague) that Ana has anit-male tendancies. I see her finding male opression in places/situations that it doesn't really exist. I recall her turning her wanting $1,000 for her art issue turn into her decrying misogny. I didn't see the link, but I guess she did. I haven't seen her advocate the rawa.org until today, but I do know she supports RAINN. (rape and incest national network)

I was just trying to do the math & see if it added up with her comments about men's rights comments on her site, her misogny issue durring the "help me buy a house" crisis, GabGab advocating relief for the women of that area, and then Ana's caption. I'm not saying there was a hidden agenda, I was asking what other people thought.
---
CONGRATULATIONS, Neetch. You just made yourself more ambiguous than Ana, which is quite an accomplishment!
---
Author: neitzche_abyss <neitzche_abyss@my-deja.com>

<< previous · next in thread >>

With recent postings here about where the proceeds of the AFJ stores should go - it was proposed about the charity GabGab is coming to the spotlight. It is a worthy cause, and personally I am going to send some money, but I wanted to point something out.

Today Ana is adding the caption of "women here need your urgent help: http://www.rawa.org"

Do you think she responded by this in part to our discussion here? I know a guy commented at her journal or BBS about men being slighted, so that was probably the remainder of her inspiration. Ana had asked people to post their thought about the subject.

Is this a genuine concern of Ana's, or is it just another attempt for her to do some male bashing? Her opinion towards men is well
documented, so I think she may have an underlying motive behind her charitable front.

---
I don't know enough about Ana to make a judgment.

Is her male bashing genuine male bashing, or she's just a feminist? Could someone give me the Cliff Notes version of Ana's dislike of men? She has a boyfriend, doesn't she, so she obviously can't dislike men that much.

I would say that soliciting funds for a women's org at this time would seem a bit suspect with regards to the timing. If she really wants to solicit funds...I say turn over all Cafe Profits to this organization!

Ludwig.

---
I don't think Ana hates all men, she just thinks that 99% of males hate women and abuse them phyically, sexually, and mentally.
As someone else said, I'm all for equal rights among everyone, but don't hate me just because I'm male, there are plenty of other reasons to hate me.
---
You won't know Ana's truest thoughts about things by looking only at her contrived posts or rants. Her offhand remarks are the most telling. And, as I have pointed out before, take a close look at those she regards as her best allies (their favorite watering hole is #analove on irc.warped.net, not the sheep farm within the hallowed walls of Ana2).

Ana's offhand remarks consistently match those of male-bashers. Draw your own conclusions.

For Ana, a boyfriend is a social and economic boon. She has been free to live her professional camlife knowing there is a full-time worker to ensure payment for shelter and food. She can even hope to have part of her $950 psych meds expenses covered by his insurance. He is Technical Support and Webmaster for Anacam (she is as dumb as a fence-post when it comes to technology and gadgets). He is escort and chauffeur when she wants to go out. As a male, he promises at least a modicum of physical protection.

That is a lot of benefit for the price of an infrequent invasion by his penis.

The recent "discussion" about male rights, in Ana's LiveJournal, was predictable. She is a magnet for extreme forms of feminists... those who are incapable of allowing that males, especially male children, can need male-oriented guidance and support.

armedforce


---
ana has been supporting rawa.org for a while now - the first I'd ever heard of the organization was through a link from her
www.sleepstation.com page back in the springtime, i think it was. Chuck

----

finally found my Ana2 password!!! So, I'm baaaaaaaccccck.

I wrote this to Stacy as a private letter, but I think I want to put it
here, too:

Dear Stacy,

I've been as preoccupied as you have been with these questions this
weekend.And I've come up with some of my own:

1.Why do people not feel that misogyny is worth getting angry, REALLY angry
about? What is so bad about calling out misogyny
where you see it? Why is it stylish to fight for the freedom of "the poor"
but not to object to the systematic de-valuation of half the
general populace? Which leads to question 2:

2.Why does it feel like, even among our friends and "supporters", there is
an unspoken warning that says, "Thou shalt get mad, but
you know,not too mad." Why do people want to calm us down so urgently? In
the past, people have used anger to mobilize, to make
political change, to make compelling art. Is that time over?

3. We live in a world where people "get" the power relationships in, say,
Clarence Thomas's allusion to "high tech lynching". And yet,
when a woman objects strenuously to being told to "bend over" for her pay
check, that's considered an over-reaction. Why is that?

Why is lynching serious, and rape a goof? And to those who respond, well
the "bend over line could have been toward a guy" I'll
rephrase: why is rape BY MEN considered a goof? Just as black folks don't
lynch white ones, last I checked, women weren't
buckling up the strap on to bend over guys. It's not an equal opportunity
metaphor, folks.

4. Why do we STILL function in a place in time where women who make art are
CONTINUTALLY questioned about their worth,
regardless of academic or gallery credentials proferred by the artists in
question?

For example, why is Stellarc a "pioneer" but Ana Voog or Stacy a
"narcissist"? Why is Mike Kelley's work with stuffed animals
"real", and "critiquing the decay of the local at the expense of world
market"s, while Ana Voog is dismissed as a girl playing with
glitter and dolls? How can people BELIEVE THIS IS NOT ABOUT GENDER?

5. Stacy, you are like me, I think, in that we honestly believed if we got
enough degrees, taught art school enough, made enough
work ourselves, published enough stuff, got familiar with the NYC art
markets, well maybe JUST MABYE we'd get the same level of
respect that other people in their chosen fields have. And yet we STILL go
through this shit. I just had some guy on a radio station
dial in to say, regardless of my PhD, if I had a camera in my house that
made me "unhinged". Nobody asked the (male) president of
spotlife if HE had a camera. Fuck.

6. After I posted in Ana's LJ, this friend of mine wrote me that to compare
physicists and artists was specious, because physicists
were routinely up against the judgement of their peers. This, he argued,
constituted their rigor. What I had to point out was I have my
own peers in the art world, and I'm sorry it bums people out but it's NOT
THE MORONS POSTING IN LIVE JOURNAL. Physisists
judge each OTHER. What they don't do is take a fucking straw poll among
'regular folks' to see if it's okay to turn the particle
accelerator on.

Now, if Laurie Anderson or Guiermo Gomez Pena or the folks from Dia want to
talk about whether digital performance work
constitutes art, and what said art would garner on the market, I might
care. But THOSE FOLKS aren't showing up.The
self-professed "ordinary people" who populate most Internet forums probably
hate ALL contemporary art. What they know of it, that
is. So why even talk about it with them? Which brings me to point seven and
I'll end:

7. Here is the crux of the problem, as I see it. Like me, you don't WANT to
hide in the art world, in the Ivory tower, in the woman's
sewing/collective group farm singing kumbayah and avoiding contact with the
phallus. I know we are making the right choice, I know
it in my heart, and so do you.

But god DAMN it, sometimes the old Christian love thing runs thin. . At one
level, "ordinary people" accuse those more educated or
priviledged or whatever of "hiding from the world." At another level, when
you take the world on its OWN fucked up, racist, classist,
misogynist terms, you get alternately told to lighten up or ignore people.
Which, of course, propels you back to step 6.

NOW I WILL END!

Oh my god this is long.I meant what I said the other day. These are the
trenches, girl. THIS is public art. THIS is activist life. Anyone
who cannot see that is blind.

Don't turn off the camera,if you can stay strong. And turn it off if you
need the break. You'll get back out into the public eye because,
ultimately, it's the right thing to do . But yeah, it sure can be tiring.
Don't ever believe anyone how tells you otherwise.

I love you for being such a fierce warrior.

Love
Terri

-----

Wednesday, October 18th, 2000

Time Event
1:40a once again i am way 2 tired 2 drag the cam in the bedroom.
and i must crash in a big way now
see ya in the morning :)
(1 Comment | Comment on this)
8:01a i have a friggin cold again! i am so pissed! :(
this is ridiculous! woke up, can't breathe, i'm taking some alkaseltzer cold medicine
then i'm going back 2 bed.
(3 Comments | Comment on this)
3:33p no fair! it's 70 degrees outside and positively gorgeous with the last of the golden leaves hanging on....
*cry*

i want to go outside for a long walk but i don't want that to make my cold worse. augh.

*thinking thinking thinking*

and my face is all broken out too and i'm supposed to get my period any second heree.

no fun.

i need a hat with a veil and a good walking stick to hold me steady. i wanna go outa nd explore!

but i'm dizzy as fuk from cold medicine.

i've been working on unvalentine's and watching vh1 and the comedy channel

i am almost done putting in snippets from my hair extensions in all the envelopes!

then the next step will be to fill each envelope with glitter! ot's gonna be a gorgeous glitter bed mess!

it's still not 2 late 2 receive your unvalentine....if u are a member of ana2 send me your username and password as proof and let me know what snail mail addy u want your unvalentiine 2 be sent 2!
(7 Comments | Comment on this)
6:48p i scubbed and scrubbed and scrubbed in the tub. tryting 2 exfoliate everything. i want 2 be beyond squeaky clean cause i feel so yucky
i took some really really cool polaroid pictures today. i am getting so many , it's gonna be a bitch 2 scan them all.

once i'm done with the big pile of polaroid film that i received, i'm gonna sort through it and figure out what 5 pictures 2 send everybody who sent me the film. yay :)

---
Thursday, October 19th, 2000

Time Event
12:52a remember when i had a cold a few months ago just like this one and i couldn't not get my nose unclogged so i could breathe? and then scott bateman and someone else said that if u snort some salt water, it'll clear it right up?
well, snorting things makes me uncomfortable...i don't want it 2 feel like when u get water up your nose sometimes by accident when swimming

anyway...finally now i was at my wits end trying 2breathe and i am so so tired but couldn't fall asleep cause i couldn't breathe. so i made a glass of salt water then i put blankets in a pile, and laid down on them on my back with my head doing into a decline. then ii put a cotton swab into the water and slowly got some up my nose that way.
and it worked in seconds! it was the first time i could breathe all day!

ack..tho..u know as i'm typing this my nose is clogging right back up again :/ that was shortlived. *sigh*

but at least i know what i can do if i would like to breathe for ten minutes!

oh...and i figured out how much it would cost per day to receive my big extravagant package thing. $2.98!

y'know...even tho i'm sick..i'm in a really good mood :) and i'm even right in the thick f PMS. but i just feel "really super"
( now that reminds me of the southpark movie )

i wish i had an itty bitty spray bottle so i could spritz salt water into my nose as i watch tv.
never thought i'd ever say such an odd thing as that!
(7 Comments | Comment on this)
2:35a ok, this putting salt water up my nose 2 get it unclogged is not working for me now. it'll unclog it for a few minutes, that's all. and after the third try the salt was burning my throat.
so....dunno....

i hope 2 god i get SOME sleep tonight.
i'm meeting with the realtor at 11:30am, and i have 2 get 2 the bank and back before that...so i'm gonna get up at 9:30am...which is in 7 1/2 hours.
augh.

i've been watching this a&e thing on some serial killer named dr. wango
truly creepy

i'm trying 2 think of what else i have been watching..but i'm drawing a complete blank.
and there was a question i wanted 2 ask u, too...and i can't remember that either.

this cold is making me look like shit..and if i don't get any sleep tonight..i'm gonna be looking pretty strung out

i saw on the jennicam newsgroup that they are yelling about my proposal to make some cash, too.

but the thread was started as saying that i was asking people to give me 1,000 bucks for a house. it didn't mention that i am offering a huge year long art piece for a thousand bucks. so everyone on there just thinks i'm nuts.

i hate people
everything gets so easily misconstrued. i swear 95% of the population on this planet is just so damn stupid beyond my comprehension

pardon if i have more typos in this entry than normal. i am feeling very dizzy from the cold medicine. i gotta lay offa that 4 awhile...it's not doing me any good any way except that it helps pass the time. everything is so bouncy and rubbery

i wish i was at the gulf of mexico laying in warm sand :)

ok, here is a question...
what is the proper use of laying and lying. do i lay in the grass or do i lie in the grass?

i never could get that straight

another bleedingly obvious thing that i just didn't have a a grasp on for years has finally come to light.

i would write, " now that's a nother story"

and i'm like "nother"? that is not a word! but then what am i doing wrong...i know it belongs in my speech there.

we, triple platinum extra strength DUH to me , as everyone knows it's"
"now that's another story"

my train of thought has now disappeared. cold medicine is a lot like pot.
u know how if u smoke some pot...u forget what u wanted to say so quickly?
all these thoughts come racing in...but u can't hone into one single thing. and u can't remember what u were thinking about 1 thought ago.

i probably smoke pot about once a year. if i'm at a get together and someone starts passing around pot, most likely i say no, just because i am not a smoker, and when i take in that first hit...all i do is cough for 20 minutes in agony

the beet i planted is sprouting pretty leaves and the bulb of garlic i planted is also starting to sprout. it cool to plant veggies and see what they really look like. i mean..i have NO idea what a garlic plant looks like on the top.
so watching it unfold is very cool because each day is a surprise

time is jusst whizzing by here.
i'm typing since i have to focus on SOMETHING other than my stuffed up nose.

ok, here are some cool questions:

1) have u ever seen a ghost?

2) have u ever seen a ufo?

3) have u ever heard voices when there is no one around but u?

4) what's theweirdest/ quirkiest thing about yourself ?

5) what is the coolest music video you've ever seen?
(57 Comments | Comment on this)
2:53a i'm downloading napster so i can see what is all the hullabaloo with that :)
yay, i never got a chance 2 use that hullabaloo word until just now!
oh joy of joys :)
(3 Comments | Comment on this)
3:37a napster
i downloaded my first song off napster. i downloaded madonna's remix of her song "music" { dl linux club mix)
holy shit, this gonna be damn addictive
(9 Comments | Comment on this)
6:31a ok, i think i can sleep now. i can breathe a bit out of my nose.
then it's up in 3 hours!
but then maybe i'll just come home and sleep some more
thanks for keeping me company through the night :)
(1 Comment | Comment on this)
9:49a ok, im up now. 2 hours of sleep. i feel likemy eyes are bloodshot. i'm gonna do my errrands as fast as i can then head straight. soooooooo tiiiiiiiiiiiiiredddd.
(1 Comment | Comment on this)
4:10p i am so happy right now, it's ridiculous. i wish i could be like this all the time :)

---
Friday, October 20th, 2000

Time Event
12:25a yes, trolls of alt.fan.jennicam. i do read that newsgroup now and them. all the little planets that whirl and crash around (insert camgirl of choice) fascinate me.

i read almost all the newsgroups pertaining 2 anything 2 do with cams. this little microcosm of a world we've made here says about about where society is at today.
or how energy is flowing. or how one spark can ignite enough dynomite to hurt quite a lot of people. or one spark could lead 2 illuminating the paths for many.

there are so many things 2 illuminate:

worth, time, value, work, money...

these seem to be even stickier and messier areas to dare 2 peel apart than sex

here is something from alt.fan.jennicam bordering on rape:

Author: Gary W.

Hell, for $1000 bucks, Ana better be prepared to bend over -- and I don't mean to pick up my check!

---------------------

i would be lieing if i said these words do not hurt me. or all women, for that matter.

why is it that so many must bash down others to feel better?

i need to center myself again...i am getting there. each day a step

let's hold hands on the way there, ok? and can we stop at the store to get some snapple? rasberry iced tea :)

i'm listening to missing person's "destination unknown"

Current Music: Missing Persons - Destination Unknown
(48 Comments | Comment on this)
1:13a here is another disturbing theme that keeps repeating itself:

from alt.fan.jennicam

Randall Flagg (narcissistic@excite.com) writes:

"i like my artists starving. it keeps them real and gives them a sense of passion"

--------
it sounds like he is ordering some kentucky fried chicken!
(9 Comments | Comment on this)
2:43p my art, my way
THIS IS TO ALL THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING RIDICULOUSLY MEAN TO ME ABOUT:
1) selling my art
2) wanting a house

ok, this is really getting out of hand

1) firstly...when i posted my idea...it was just that...an idea.
just kicking around some thoughts in my head, y'know?

2) secondly i am not asking for people to just send me 1,000 so that i can buy a condo.
i am asking them IF they would want to pay 1,000 for a year's worth of:
-----

()()()()()()() one entire album of new music from me, 12 songs. entirely new. and it would be a limited edition of 1,000 so it would be quite rare!
they would receive one new song a month from me for a year.

()()()()()()() i would make a magazine. YES, an entire magazine with glossy paper and all that and it would contain anagrams (pictures from my webcam and text to go along with that..journal entries, etc ), plus other things that no one else would ever see or get, also in a limited edition of 1,000. and they would get one a month from me for a year.

()()()()()()() then also they would get 24 hours worth of video from me. each month they would get a two hour video tape from me of reading poetry perhaps, doing perfornace art, or just me talking about my life, or going on a journey with me outside...i don't know exactly because i like to be spontaneous, but it definitely would be of quality and be entertaining. i would have to go into an editing room and edit it together each month. this would also be in a limited edition of 1,000 copies.

()()()()()()() and the poloroid thing. man. that was just thrown in there for fun! i hardly think a polaroid is worth 1,000 dollars. that's ridiculous! but i just thought it'd be cute to get a unique polaroid from me each month, too. just for kicks ya know?

AND each person would possibly receive from me one of these:

1) a painting
2) a stuffed animal
3) or possibly something else that was a tangible unique thing that i would make

----------

i would dedicate my time for an entire year to make these things for interested people. i do not feel it would be forced. in fact, i feel very energized by this idea. it is an interesting challenge for me. i like interesting challenges. it's like a puzzle or playing chess.

and yes, i do feel that all of that, in it's entirety, is worth 1,000 bucks. not because i am a celebrity but because i would be dedicating all of my time for an entire year to this.

1,000 dollars as my wage for a year to make these things comes to $2.77 a day for my labour. so i think 1,000 bucks is actually very reasonable if not downright cheap.

i am very proud of the quality work i do and i won't be shamed for thinking it's worth little or next to nothing. it might not be worth 1,000 bucks to YOU...and that's JUST FINE. go your way in peace, i'm not forcing anyone to buy it. but it IS worth 1,000 bucks to ME.

my only "mistake", (and i do not even wish to call it that since i don't know why it is so awful that i said i would like to buy myself a house) is that i said i would use the money to help by a house.
so sue me for wanting a house. gadzooks.

and the thing is AND I HOPE THAT PEOPLE WILL REALLY PAY ATTENTION TO THIS POINT, is that i have been wanting to do something like that for a very long time. AND i just happened to run into this condo the other day and was mesmerized by it....so i thought i'd put two and two together and that might work out for me. but no, i am practically crucified for it.
i think that that says a lot about our society today and how we are more fuct up about money than sex!

i deserve a house! why is it so awful that i want a house?
i'm not going to be ashamed for that!

and p.s. if anyone is interested in buying that package deal that i have descibed here, email me at ana101@hotmnail.com

hehe :) *boing boing boing* like tigger :)
(10 Comments | Comment on this)
3:33p i'm having a big gigantic argument/debate at the jennicam forum about the hatred hurled at me over asking money for my art.

click on this sentence if u want 2 go there
(17 Comments | Comment on this)
9:31p *whew*
wow, 138 posts on the subject of me selling art 2 buy a house.
(9 Comments | Comment on this)
10:18p it's ironic that people at alt.fan.jennicam are ragging on the "anaverse"
when the definition of what the anaverse is is everything having to do with me or my cam, or anything related ....u know..the bbs, the media, the cam, pooka :) etc etc.

so because they are talking about the anaverse, they have by default made themselves part of it

we , the anaverse in the chatroom, i think..., coined that term and thought it was funny and fitting and it gave us a word that we needed to describe what was happening here
(5 Comments | Comment on this)
10:39p yes, i know i'm staying on this whole topic a long time. but it is just LACED with intricacies.

i just have to show u this one thing from alt.fan.jennicam 'cause it's so hysterical!

karde writes to show how what i am offering is not worth 1,000 bucks..(ya i guess it wouldn't be if i was only gonna send off those things for one month. my god). karde writes:

"As an aside, that $1,000/year could be broken down like this so you can see the value:

$13/song/month
$40/2 hour vid/month
$35/magazine/month
$5 per picture/month"
-------

ok, so going on that... 13+40+35+5=93.00

93.00 x 12= $1, 116

hmmm....i guess it's worth even MORE than a thousand!

---
Saturday, October 21st, 2000

Time Event
2:23a madonna
i'm listening 2 the new madonna record for the first time now. really loud in headphones. i LOVE the song "music"
it definitely makes me wanna woogie :)

gonna try 2 make a new anagram now...but i have mountains of pictures 2 sort through and text 2 put together
(4 Comments | Comment on this)
3:54a ok, at least i got 1/2 the anagram done. its' a biggee. but i'll have 2 wait until tomorrow 2 get it all done and up

must. sleep.

and it will be the first sleep in many days that i will be breathing out of my nose!
yay :)
(1 Comment | Comment on this)
6:11p it's just sort of a day. nothing big. ate breakfast out with jason. talked to my mom. i was really jacked up to get a lot of things done today and i wanted 2 go on a walk, then it got grey really fast...and as the grey set in so did my motivation dissapate.

it's that middle time of day where i can get lost quite easily.

after yesterday's barrage on me and my ideas, and people thinking i am bipolar and psychotic and i'm arrogant greedy shallow lazy and a whore...maybe i day of watching movies would be good.

i am not as drained about it tho as i would usually be. i feel really pretty damn good :)
and tomorrow there is an open house thing at the building that the condo i want is in. and i think i might just go there tomorow and write prayers on it's walls and imbed my energy like a maze of capillaries into it's walls so in the end it will suck me into it's mouth and tell me hello, melting away in a warm cocoon of home...
(7 Comments | Comment on this)
10:28p groovy new anagram up on ana2

---
Sunday, October 22nd, 2000

Time Event
1:31a i don't think i will justify nor explain my actions for awhile

Current Music: Depeche Mode & Prince - When Dove's Cry (Fatboy Slim Remix)

---

Read Comments

ana clara voog says...
@ 2000-10-22 01:31:00

i don't think i will justify nor explain my actions for awhile

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Responses....

Justify
denmaster
2000-10-21 23:53
I do not think you should EVER Justify or explain your statements or actions. You do what you do with the best intentions. If the instigators want to mouth off. weigh your statements against there noise, cause that is all they have, noise.

the loud mouth's should remember:

it is better to be Quiet and thought a fool
than to speak up, and prove it.

Just have fun for a wile. Life goes on.
(Reply to this)

Yup
marcoo
2000-10-22 00:27
No need for you to do that ;)
The ones who love you understand you, and the ones who don't don't deserve explanations anyway;)
((((((((((((((((((Lil Owl)))))))))))))))))))
(Reply to this)

Such a silly debate
jimmiebeeee
2000-10-22 02:05
I added my 2 cents worth two that Jennicam whatever debate thingy about the $1,000 request.

Let me repeat: Hey complainers, it's called MARKETING.

I have to chuckle. Like these whiners have never been enticed by ads in the newspaper or on TV to buy that new must-have computer, SUV, designer jacket (for which kids kill other kids to steal what they can't afford).

Jeez! What part of "For $1,000 you get the following art over the next year?" are they too dense to understand? As if trying to sell things they, created to earn a living would be beneath them.

People take the "starving artist" stereotype too seriously.

Some people make creating artworks their livelihood (Picasso, The Beatles, Robert Frost) and some people sit at a computer 40 hours a week and create newspaper pages. To each our own.
(Reply to this)

indeed!
stacy
2000-10-22 02:43
very well said!!!
(Reply to this)

Re: Such a silly debate
bjorn
2000-10-28 08:18
picasso, the beatles, ha WHAT.
(Reply to this)

And why not?
roachspray
2000-10-22 03:11
Oh, really? And just what do you mean by that?

teehee

That's a DAMN liberating position to put your mind in, if you can keep it there. While part of the beauty of observing the creative process at the level you permit us to lies in having the artist justify and explain themselves verbally, doing so DOES compromise your art somewhat. My belief was always that if I was taking a photograph, that picture had to say something that words would not express adequately, otherwise I should just say what's on my mind, clearly, rather than leave the message open to interpretation. For me, if I could just speak what I was trying to communicate, I wasn't creating art by making a photograph.

Tell us how you feel - justify yourself, explain yourself: in your art. That's what I expect, at least. It's why I keep coming back to see what you're doing.

---
Re: And why not?
ana
2000-10-22 09:29
unless u are a member of ana2, or buy my offer, don't "expect" anything from me. i don't owe u anything. not even an explanation

(Reply to this)

yay!
gelasia
2000-10-22 14:55
Hi Ana,

I recently signed up with ana2, and just knowing that those rude ones will suffer from the lack of your creativity makes me feel I'm getting my $10 worth. It's not even seeing you on cam once in a while, I just love pourong through your journal entries, and past anagrams. I think your website is the best interactive one I've come across during my surfing adventures. (The anadolls are so fun!)

You are so creative, and talented, I can only be inspired by you.

That's why I signed up with ana2. :)

I'm not your mom, but I'm so Proud of you!

gonna go sing the smurf themesong now..lala la la la.....
(Reply to this)

Re: And why not?
roachspray
2000-10-24 15:02
Yeah, ok, whatever... That was meant as a supportive response. If you want to take it as assuming something or as too demanding, I'll withdraw any expectations except that you'll be overly sensitive to what people say.

Maybe you're too wrapped up in your own problems to notice: I've always tried to be pretty encouraging with anything I've written in your LJ - maybe it's not taken well, whatever. I like what I've seen of your archive, and I've enjoyed what I've heard of your music.

No, you don't owe anyone anything. Do I have expectations? Sure. I'm not a boddhisatva. Perhaps when I reach that level of enlightenment, I'll be able to fully appreciate you and your art. Until then, I'm going to assume it's off limits to me, paying ana2 & buyanaahouse.com customer or not.
(Reply to this)

(no subject)
netrunner
2000-10-22 06:07
Wha Hooooooooooooo !!!!!!1
Good for you ana :))

TTFN
Net
(Reply to this)

(no subject)
stacy
2000-10-22 08:18
i think that's a really fucking good idea. :)

one of the things all this lunacy has taught me as it has transpired is that people really like to presume to know you when they don't, for whatever reason. maybe it's the fact that because you put yourself on the internet, because you have a journal and because they see you naked, or whatever, they think you are public property, and that you can be cruelly ripped apart just for expressing an idea. i think most people have a VERRRRYYYY hard time with the idea of public/private. i'm learning this the hard way with atomcam. of course it hurts when people write and say "your opinions are bullshit," but unless they're inside my head, how can they REALLY know?

i read a very astute comment in (Reply to this)

ACK!!!
stacy
2000-10-22 08:21
i totally screwed up the link in that last post. here's how it was supposed to continue:

(Reply to this)

AAAAACCCCKKKK!!!
stacy
2000-10-22 08:23
(okay, i have no idea what i'm doing wrong, but this is really the end of the post:)

...fade's journal, where she said someone had once asked anne rice if there was any way he could get in touch with lestat personally. i think normally i would have laughed, but under the circumstances, i found it rather upsetting.

so the point is (like i need to say it again): your decision to buy a place is a personal decision that only you and jason can ultimately make. you're the ones who have to live there. you're the ones who know if buying a condo is the best thing for you. where you want to live is your choice. and yes, it will benefit all of us who watch your cam, because we'll get to see you there making art. but we're not inside your head. you're the only one who has to live there. who is anyone else to presume to know what's right for you?

you do not have to justify your personal life and your personal decisions any more than anybody who ISN'T living her life on cam. the boundaries can get really murky sometimes, but there ARE still boundaries, and it is your right to protect them.

you have been very strong and astute during this whole thing, and you have presented your case way above and beyond what you ever needed to, and now it is time to whuffle some pookadogs and revel in the fact that in six months you may own your dream home. please drink some fizzy carbonated beverages and woogie a lot and enjoy your sparkly day. :)
(Reply to this)

Re: AAAAACCCCKKKK!!!
ravenritings
2000-10-22 17:02
a celebrity IS public property,
If she cant handle the heat,
get out of the kitchen.
(Reply to this)

Wro-ong
beep
2000-10-22 19:47
No one is public property. Everyone has a right to privacy - Don't you think? or, don't you think?!
(Reply to this)

Re: Wro-ong
ravenritings
2000-10-23 19:27
It's just what happens..
when someone is supported by the public,
thier personal life becomes the publics business..
You know how reporters track stars for the business of reporting.... that celebrity's personal life becomes other's business..
The people demand to see, the reporters supply what the people want to see of the stars...
and stars use these reports to propagate more interest, thus more attention to their own business of stardom.
As long as stars invite the people into their personal life, such is the demand, such is the suply, such is the business... and that is what I mean by a celebrity being public property.
(Reply to this)

duh
ana
2000-10-23 20:12
ya right.
u are making a complete idiot out of yourself

(Reply to this)

Re: AAAAACCCCKKKK!!!
ana
2000-10-22 19:54
what an incredibly ignorant and selfish thing 2 say
(Reply to this)

Re: AAAAACCCCKKKK!!!
howief
2000-10-22 22:11
I thought that being a celebrity was just a job. I mean, people make movies, art, music, stuff. All of which can be sold wholesale or retail. The public owns nothing. If I had a painting by Picasso, you don't have the right to come into my house and see it because Picasso is a "celebrity."
(Reply to this)

Re: AAAAACCCCKKKK!!!
ravenritings
2000-10-23 19:36
When someone's life has been packaged as a product to sell...their character, their style, aspects of their personal life that public adore,
and the public have their expectations from this product..
and for the product to be successful, it must comply with the public expectations..
then in this essence,
the public own the celebrity.
(Reply to this)

Re: AAAAACCCCKKKK!!!
ana
2000-10-23 20:14
so u are telling me that YOU OWN harrison ford?
(Reply to this)

Re: AAAAACCCCKKKK!!!
howief
2000-10-23 21:30
Well, I still disagree. You don't "OWN" the celebrity; you can only "own" the part that you pay for. For example a "celebrity" actor makes a movie. You go to the theater and you pay for the right to view the movie. You are NOT entitled to anything else. You are not entitled to profit sharing from the movie. You are NOT entitled to autographs of the actor. You are NOT entitled to part of the actor's pay. You are NOT entitled to attend the celebrity's wedding (either in person or via paparazzi/photos). The celebrity is NOT the product IMHO. I wouldn't go see a lousy movie by a great or famous actor. Would you? Are what you are saying is that an actor must not have a security gate and MUST walk to the store by him or herself because we have a right to that person.

There is a good article to read sortta on this subject in Newsweek, October 23, 2000. It starts on page 63 and is a book excerpt about Joe DiMaggio. Joe had seen to it that no one really knew much about him.

I do understand what you are trying to say, though. The public might TRY to own the celebrity but it's always up to the celebrity in the end as to what the "public" gets. IHMO, as usual.

Howie

(Reply to this)

Re: AAAAACCCCKKKK!!!
bjorn
2000-10-28 08:20
WHAT.
(Reply to this)

Re: AAAAACCCCKKKK!!!
stacy
2000-10-23 15:58
unfortunately, this is a common misperception! i think people confuse the concept of being in the public eye with "belonging" to the public. it's a hard line to draw! but celebrities have private lives too. with webcam artists, that line becomes even hazier, because we see them at home, we see them having dinner, we see them engaged in a variety of activities that might make it seem as if we have ready access to their private lives. but of course we don't! we see what they choose to share with us.

i know, though, that it can be really tough to separate the ideas of public and private in the lives of celebrities, especially in such a voyeuristic nation!
(Reply to this)

Re: AAAAACCCCKKKK!!!
mphand
2000-10-23 18:10
It always amazes me the very idea that some have that "public figures" are "public property." I suspect it is the same mentality that makes some football fans feel great when "their" team wins, and horrible when they don't. They have no identity of their own, I fear, and are relegated to living vicariously through others. Anc, because they feel that they are living life through others, they feel they own that other life. No one is owned, or obligated, to another. What explanations are offered are gifts...to be gratefully received and cherished for their rareity.
(Reply to this)

Re: AAAAACCCCKKKK!!!
ana
2000-10-23 20:17
ya, that is pretty damn creepy! like something out of the movie "being john malkovich", which if u haven't seen it u should!
(Reply to this)

Exactly
byron
2000-10-22 10:42
That's exactly point the most of us have been trying to hammer into your skull this weekend! You don't have to justify anything to anyone butyourself!

Good choice Ana.
(Reply to this)

LIBERATION
shannonkringen
2000-10-22 15:07
free form

Fully ALIVE...dead 2 the P A S T . . .
Power, Shannon
(Reply to this)

I was walking through the park...
beep
2000-10-22 20:02
...and thought of you, today, Ana. One of the lessons I learned growing up (well, not that I ever grew up, but being raised...)in a large family is that as long as you react, people keep it up. When you no longer respond, it's no fun for them anymore to give you a hard time. So, yay! You get it and I'm glad you decided this - it was starting to get to me too - to the point of not wanting to visit, so this is perfect. Like Stacy said, enjoy a beverage and something funny or whatever it was she said exactly - cuddle up w/Jason & the pups - even keeled, smooth sailin' on stillness..... ^j^
(Reply to this)

Re: I was walking through the park...
ana
2000-10-23 10:52
i know that :) i have been keeping it up because i am very interested in other people's perspective, as much as i cringe at the responses...i need 2 hear these things so i can more fully understand how, as a society, we are so seriously fuct about money and value and the "work ethic" , etc.
i've pretty much heard all i can digest at the moment.
but really, i am perfectly ok. i feel really grounded right now, more than i have been in the last few months...so that is why i was able 2 delce into this "hell" for a bit and watch it.

i am actually really in a very good mood, and don't feel drained at all by this ( ok, i feel like 5% drained )

i know now VERY well about how people will just keep on going if u keep responding...having done this now for three years. can u believe that? 3 years! :)

it really fascinates me how negative energy and positive energy gathers together in little pools.
and how it moves...like mercury in a bottle..u can shake it al up..but it gathers itself all together again in the end.

the whole feng shiu thing maybe

and how certain streets are so negative feeling..while one block over feels joyful

i love paying attention to how i feel as i move through my physical neighbourhood...then i can get a better feel of who *i* am, and now just suck in other energies around me and then not be able 2 discern what energies are mine, and what other energies in me i soaked in from my environment.

like the other day i was feeling really positive, and i went into this restaurant 2 eat, and i found myself getting really really critical and bitter in there. i started really picking people apart in a negative way in there. and when i left the restaurant and got outside, i was like "woa! what happened 2 me in there!" and i started 2 shake off all of that critical energy that i felt in there and tried 2 get back to "me", and did :)

it fascinates me. why did i become so critical in there? did the people that worked there hate their job and i soaked that in?
or was it just me?
or what was that? why did that happen?

and the internet is the same. "birds of a feather flock together"

thankfully, inside ana2.com, it is a haven from this...and inside is a wonderful community of loving, caring people from all walks of life. and we gather in the bbs there called " under the bed" and we really support each other through thick and thin :)

(Reply to this)

Re: I was walking through the park...
beep
2000-10-24 22:30
Hiya!.....I just thought it was interesting to stop in for a visit to find that you actually had decided and written something that crossed my mind earlier in the day. I like the coincidence of having a thought in passing and then discovering that previously unbeknownst to me, that person was on the same train perhaps even around the same time! PS I also like to explore within my field and get a good sense of me so I can find myself again after having those kind of absorbing experiences! So sensitive you are - nice to find uses for these awarenesses...glad you're doin' well and feelin' a'right :D
G'night!
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Re: I was walking through the park...
aero
2000-10-25 05:28
You are definitely not an existentialist, Ana. And before you get defensive.... no, I don't know you other than the few posts that I have read of yours, but I still have the right to respond to what you have said. This is public.

You seem to be affected by everything. Your environment affects you that much? I would call it being moody or flaky.... not blaming it on people or things around you. Doing so would be arrogance. You can't see in yourself or admit to yourself that you can be a critical person at times? We all are at times. Instead, you are saying that you must have picked a vibe up from people who work there and are disgruntled about their job. That is far fetched. Have you been given a 'gift' or something?

Of course one can pick up when others are unhappy, but to think that you know what it is about, it is narcassistic.... like my son. For the first few years, I made a point not to be depressed or cry around him. I did that because a child understands nothing for what it really is. They only understand things in relation to themselves. Him seeing me cry would have made him think that I was upset because of him....narcassism. Taking things personally that have nothing to do with you....narcassism.

You should believe within yourself that nothing of what most of these people on LJ have to say really has anything to do with you and not take it personally, including me. All the people that respond to you have lives of there own, and most are probably here because they have nothing better to do or you fill in a gap in their lives for whatever reason. Thus, you must think that half of what people say isn''t really directed at you. It is them trying to find a way to vent on someone rather than look at themselves.

I have been around people of course who have set me in a bad mood, but it was because of something that they had directly done to me, not a vibe. I feel that people who are affected by others around them are weak and don't know who they are within themselves enough to maintain the same 'vibe'.... changing their attitude and mood with what the setting is.

The whole restaurant and critical mood thing marked you as a very 'young' person in my book, to say it nicely. Moods can change, and they are every bit of you, not others. Being so affected by what is around you wouldn't lead me to believe that you know who you are. It would lead me to believe that you don't.

The question marks need no response from you. I wouldn't dare ask anything of you.... a person who will not explain herself to anyone. I went through that phase when I was 15, feeling as though if I needn't explain myself to anyone. It was a defense against critical judgement from others.... it wasn't really about who I was as a person or how I wanted to be. It was about not knowing who I was, one of those silly little 'boundaries / blockade / rules / guidelines to live by' that you try on for size when experiencing teenage angst.
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Re: I was walking through the park...
scrap
2000-10-25 06:13
ooohhh..shit....that post won't last long haha...she'll delete that as soon as she sees it as well as this one. but while it lasts.....fukkin right on!
It's sad but Ana only accepts criticism that comes from the clueless screwups on here that have their mouths firmly planted between the cheeks of her ass....and there are quite a few..
(Reply to this)

sinead o'connor
shannonkringen
2000-10-22 20:17

did YOU see her on vh1 tonight??? i love sinead so much. her expression is precious. helps me see...big mirror ya know?
love and VALIDATION for all, shannon
(Reply to this)

Re: sinead o'connor
ana
2000-10-23 10:55
ya, that was a very cool "behind the music"
now she is a priest!
i wonder if she has a church that she works at?
(Reply to this)

justify
gsave
2000-10-22 20:38
good idea
see my journal to get my full opinion of justification and explanation
please feel free
to feel free
greg
(Reply to this)

You Shouldn't Have to Justify ANY Posts
howief
2000-10-23 00:35
This is your journal, your webcam, your site. If the Jennicam people don't like what they read, let them all wander out of cyberspace and become a real human for a change. So don't even bother with them. However, like anyone else, I imagine you are probably sensitive of all of the criticisms.

I have a new take on this: I like to watch public broadcasting, at times (PBS). Unfortunately, they have to screw up their broadcast schedules during "pledge week". During these weeks, the channel asks for pledges and, in return for certain "levels" of pledges, you can get something related to what you are watching. Some people might think: "$100 for a video tape; that's ridiculous" but they don't really see the point. The point is you are supporting the programming. You are paying for the value of the whole package and not just the stupid video tape. It's not charity. It's not a "gift". It's the individual helping out based on his or her total acknowledgement of the value to them of everything the station means to them. Not just a video tape or, in your case, a package of artistic creations. How many of the people on the Jennicam regularly visit your site and your journal and receive value from it like we do? If they think that what they receive from you is worth $1000 (including the art) AND they can afford the money, then they can come up with it or maybe not. It's up to them, but they are way off-base if this is a subject for debate. You don't have to justify anything because their whole argument is pointless anyway. I'm sorry if they are hurting you. Please don't lose any sleep over it.
(Reply to this)

(Post a new comment)
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Re: And why not?
roachspray
2000-10-24 15:02
Yeah, ok, whatever... That was meant as a supportive response. If you want to take it as assuming something or as too demanding, I'll withdraw any expectations except that you'll be overly sensitive to what people say.

Maybe you're too wrapped up in your own problems to notice: I've always tried to be pretty encouraging with anything I've written in your LJ - maybe it's not taken well, whatever. I like what I've seen of your archive, and I've enjoyed what I've heard of your music.

No, you don't owe anyone anything. Do I have expectations? Sure. I'm not a boddhisatva. Perhaps when I reach that level of enlightenment, I'll be able to fully appreciate you and your art. Until then, I'm going to assume it's off limits to me, paying ana2 & buyanaahouse.com customer or not.

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Re: AAAAACCCCKKKK!!!
ravenritings
2000-10-22 17:02
a celebrity IS public property,
If she cant handle the heat,
get out of the kitchen.
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Re: Wro-ong
ravenritings
2000-10-23 19:27
It's just what happens..
when someone is supported by the public,
thier personal life becomes the publics business..
You know how reporters track stars for the business of reporting.... that celebrity's personal life becomes other's business..
The people demand to see, the reporters supply what the people want to see of the stars...
and stars use these reports to propagate more interest, thus more attention to their own business of stardom.
As long as stars invite the people into their personal life, such is the demand, such is the suply, such is the business... and that is what I mean by a celebrity being public property.

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Re: AAAAACCCCKKKK!!!
ana
2000-10-22 19:54
what an incredibly ignorant and selfish thing 2 say

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Re: AAAAACCCCKKKK!!!
ravenritings
2000-10-23 19:36
When someone's life has been packaged as a product to sell...their character, their style, aspects of their personal life that public adore,
and the public have their expectations from this product..
and for the product to be successful, it must comply with the public expectations..
then in this essence,
the public own the celebrity.

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Re: AAAAACCCCKKKK!!!
ana
2000-10-23 20:14
so u are telling me that YOU OWN harrison ford?

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Re: AAAAACCCCKKKK!!!
howief
2000-10-23 21:30
Well, I still disagree. You don't "OWN" the celebrity; you can only "own" the part that you pay for. For example a "celebrity" actor makes a movie. You go to the theater and you pay for the right to view the movie. You are NOT entitled to anything else. You are not entitled to profit sharing from the movie. You are NOT entitled to autographs of the actor. You are NOT entitled to part of the actor's pay. You are NOT entitled to attend the celebrity's wedding (either in person or via paparazzi/photos). The celebrity is NOT the product IMHO. I wouldn't go see a lousy movie by a great or famous actor. Would you? Are what you are saying is that an actor must not have a security gate and MUST walk to the store by him or herself because we have a right to that person.

There is a good article to read sortta on this subject in Newsweek, October 23, 2000. It starts on page 63 and is a book excerpt about Joe DiMaggio. Joe had seen to it that no one really knew much about him.

I do understand what you are trying to say, though. The public might TRY to own the celebrity but it's always up to the celebrity in the end as to what the "public" gets. IHMO, as usual.

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Re: AAAAACCCCKKKK!!!
stacy
2000-10-23 15:58
unfortunately, this is a common misperception! i think people confuse the concept of being in the public eye with "belonging" to the public. it's a hard line to draw! but celebrities have private lives too. with webcam artists, that line becomes even hazier, because we see them at home, we see them having dinner, we see them engaged in a variety of activities that might make it seem as if we have ready access to their private lives. but of course we don't! we see what they choose to share with us.

i know, though, that it can be really tough to separate the ideas of public and private in the lives of celebrities, especially in such a voyeuristic nation!
(Reply to this)

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Re: AAAAACCCCKKKK!!!
mphand
2000-10-23 18:10
It always amazes me the very idea that some have that "public figures" are "public property." I suspect it is the same mentality that makes some football fans feel great when "their" team wins, and horrible when they don't. They have no identity of their own, I fear, and are relegated to living vicariously through others. Anc, because they feel that they are living life through others, they feel they own that other life. No one is owned, or obligated, to another. What explanations are offered are gifts...to be gratefully received and cherished for their rareity.

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I was walking through the park...
beep
2000-10-22 20:02
...and thought of you, today, Ana. One of the lessons I learned growing up (well, not that I ever grew up, but being raised...)in a large family is that as long as you react, people keep it up. When you no longer respond, it's no fun for them anymore to give you a hard time. So, yay! You get it and I'm glad you decided this - it was starting to get to me too - to the point of not wanting to visit, so this is perfect. Like Stacy said, enjoy a beverage and something funny or whatever it was she said exactly - cuddle up w/Jason & the pups - even keeled, smooth sailin' on stillness..... ^j^
(Reply to this)

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Re: I was walking through the park...
ana
2000-10-23 10:52
i know that :) i have been keeping it up because i am very interested in other people's perspective, as much as i cringe at the responses...i need 2 hear these things so i can more fully understand how, as a society, we are so seriously fuct about money and value and the "work ethic" , etc.
i've pretty much heard all i can digest at the moment.
but really, i am perfectly ok. i feel really grounded right now, more than i have been in the last few months...so that is why i was able 2 delce into this "hell" for a bit and watch it.

i am actually really in a very good mood, and don't feel drained at all by this ( ok, i feel like 5% drained )

i know now VERY well about how people will just keep on going if u keep responding...having done this now for three years. can u believe that? 3 years! :)

it really fascinates me how negative energy and positive energy gathers together in little pools.
and how it moves...like mercury in a bottle..u can shake it al up..but it gathers itself all together again in the end.

the whole feng shiu thing maybe

and how certain streets are so negative feeling..while one block over feels joyful

i love paying attention to how i feel as i move through my physical neighbourhood...then i can get a better feel of who *i* am, and now just suck in other energies around me and then not be able 2 discern what energies are mine, and what other energies in me i soaked in from my environment.

like the other day i was feeling really positive, and i went into this restaurant 2 eat, and i found myself getting really really critical and bitter in there. i started really picking people apart in a negative way in there. and when i left the restaurant and got outside, i was like "woa! what happened 2 me in there!" and i started 2 shake off all of that critical energy that i felt in there and tried 2 get back to "me", and did :)

it fascinates me. why did i become so critical in there? did the people that worked there hate their job and i soaked that in?
or was it just me?
or what was that? why did that happen?

and the internet is the same. "birds of a feather flock together"

thankfully, inside ana2.com, it is a haven from this...and inside is a wonderful community of loving, caring people from all walks of life. and we gather in the bbs there called " under the bed" and we really support each other through thick and thin :)

---
Re: I was walking through the park...
beep
2000-10-24 22:30
Hiya!.....I just thought it was interesting to stop in for a visit to find that you actually had decided and written something that crossed my mind earlier in the day. I like the coincidence of having a thought in passing and then discovering that previously unbeknownst to me, that person was on the same train perhaps even around the same time! PS I also like to explore within my field and get a good sense of me so I can find myself again after having those kind of absorbing experiences! So sensitive you are - nice to find uses for these awarenesses...glad you're doin' well and feelin' a'right :D
G'night!

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Re: I was walking through the park...
aero
2000-10-25 05:28
You are definitely not an existentialist, Ana. And before you get defensive.... no, I don't know you other than the few posts that I have read of yours, but I still have the right to respond to what you have said. This is public.

You seem to be affected by everything. Your environment affects you that much? I would call it being moody or flaky.... not blaming it on people or things around you. Doing so would be arrogance. You can't see in yourself or admit to yourself that you can be a critical person at times? We all are at times. Instead, you are saying that you must have picked a vibe up from people who work there and are disgruntled about their job. That is far fetched. Have you been given a 'gift' or something?

Of course one can pick up when others are unhappy, but to think that you know what it is about, it is narcassistic.... like my son. For the first few years, I made a point not to be depressed or cry around him. I did that because a child understands nothing for what it really is. They only understand things in relation to themselves. Him seeing me cry would have made him think that I was upset because of him....narcassism. Taking things personally that have nothing to do with you....narcassism.

You should believe within yourself that nothing of what most of these people on LJ have to say really has anything to do with you and not take it personally, including me. All the people that respond to you have lives of there own, and most are probably here because they have nothing better to do or you fill in a gap in their lives for whatever reason. Thus, you must think that half of what people say isn''t really directed at you. It is them trying to find a way to vent on someone rather than look at themselves.

I have been around people of course who have set me in a bad mood, but it was because of something that they had directly done to me, not a vibe. I feel that people who are affected by others around them are weak and don't know who they are within themselves enough to maintain the same 'vibe'.... changing their attitude and mood with what the setting is.

The whole restaurant and critical mood thing marked you as a very 'young' person in my book, to say it nicely. Moods can change, and they are every bit of you, not others. Being so affected by what is around you wouldn't lead me to believe that you know who you are. It would lead me to believe that you don't.

The question marks need no response from you. I wouldn't dare ask anything of you.... a person who will not explain herself to anyone. I went through that phase when I was 15, feeling as though if I needn't explain myself to anyone. It was a defense against critical judgement from others.... it wasn't really about who I was as a person or how I wanted to be. It was about not knowing who I was, one of those silly little 'boundaries / blockade / rules / guidelines to live by' that you try on for size when experiencing teenage angst.
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Thoughtform collisions
algavore
2000-10-23 15:10
Hi Ana,

Check out some of the Featured Articles from this non-physical being:

http://www.abraham-hicks.com/Knowledge/Abraham/Newsletters/index.html

In one discussion, Abraham (whatever/whoever "it" is) described a woman who crossed over a high suspension bridge and was suddenly consumed with tremendous fear that she didn't seem to be the source of (sort of like the restaurant you visited).

Abraham explained it like this:

In talking with the woman - it came out that she was feeling vulnerable recently.

A neighbor of hers had been broken into by a burglar. So this woman started thinking about things like home alarm systems and so on. And being especially sensitive to stories about local crime and so on.

Anyway - what happened to her (according to Abraham) was that she bumped into a collective thought form of fear and vulnerability on the bridge because she was a vibrational match to it (even though she had never had a specific fear of heights).

She had been thinking about unpleasant circumstances "intruding themselves" into someone's experience and when she crossed the bridge that day (which she had done hundreds of times before without incident) she had become a match to the coalesced thought forms created by other individuals who had a literal fear of falling or bridges.

So she was "seized" by the same fear.

So basically - the idea that Abraham shared was that - yes - we are effected by the thought atmospheres of specific places - but only if in emotional tone we have some resonance with it.

Often we think we have to be responsible people or something and we turn on the "news" and hear all kinds of horrible things, or we watch some show based on destructive and dysfunctional behavior called a "sit com."

Then we hit the streets and bump into every thought form that's a match.

I guess the moral that emerges is - "pay attention to what makes you feel good and it enlarges."

('Cause the opposite is also true.)

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Tuesday, October 24th, 2000

Time Event
12:12a anapix
get your anapix in 'cause i'm gonna put up a new batch! :)
(Comment on this)
1:16a mmmm, milky way chocolate bar :)
i scanned all the polaroids that i've taken so far, and now i was sorting through them for a new anagram. they turned out way darker than the original photograph, which is a slight bummer. i wish i could figure out a trick to scan polaroids

i'm gonna go 2 bed soon, as i'm finally getting tired.

i watched a really cool movie tonight called "smoke"
(6 Comments | Comment on this)
10:33a another grey hazy day in the 60's.
i'm still working on th epolaroids i scanned
listening 2 john waters being interviewed on the independent film channel
(2 Comments | Comment on this)
12:53p my polaroid project
here is a page where u can see some of the polaoids i've taken so far:

www.anacam.com/polaroids.html

instructions at the bottom of that page about how u can become part of this project and receive polaroids from me :)

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Re: darkness of scans
ana
2000-10-25 09:42
mmm, i love electrical tape and duct tape :)

once, while i was working at this used retail clothing store called ragstock, i was bored...so i put on some long johns then duct taped all around them to try 2 make some duct tape pants.

but it didn't work. i couldn't move!
so my co worker and i tried to cut me out of them..but all the scissors were dull!

so we were laughing and laughing and it took me a long time 2 get out of them :)

and then there's the good ol' wendy-o williams "top" of duct taping X's on your breasts :) i did that a lot :)

i would duct tape lots of x's on my shirts too :)

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ahhhh, St.Paul! interesting.....
beep
2000-10-24 22:51
...that the pictures - especially towards the bottom - that show just your face - the left eye, the "spirit eye" is quite clear and the right is just a bit hazy... apparently, when you want to tune in to how someone really feels, you look at their left eye - in pix or live...I have been checking this out for many years since I first heard about it (NLP or somewhere - Whole Brain Functioning maybe) anywayz, without knowing you I'd guess right off the bat that you have a strong spirit connection and understanding of things of that realm and have a harder time with earth stuff and things of "the world"
Check it out sometime - maybe you already do - the sides of people's faces are usually quite different when you take the time to tune in. OK, g'nite - ohmigod it's so late - how does this happen?!
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Re: ahhhh, St.Paul! interesting.....
ana
2000-10-25 09:43
ya, the right side of my face is rather crabby looking and the left side is very child-like

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Wednesday, October 25th, 2000

Time Event
12:04p ok, i'm up. it's even greyer out today. 90% humidity
i'm not sure what i'll do today. since i made three anagrams in 2 days..i might just watch some movies for a bit. i have a documentary movie about sophie b. hawkins that i haven't wtached yet, and i know nothing about her at all. and i have vernon, florida still 2 watch..so maybe i'll sit on the couch and wtach those with the dogs.

then maybe i'll go for another walk...this time without the polaroid camera so i can just walk and focus on that. i took a zillion polaroids yesterday running around train tracks and such , trying to smoke clove cigarettes, getting really dirty. it was fun :)

then afterwards, we went 2 one of our fave restaurants and i had a yummy spinach salad and some ciders :) we took the scooter 'cause it was still 65 degrees out at night.
i feel like i should make an effort to get out as much as possible now, since very soon it will be getting cold.

my mom told me that they are predicting a cold winter this year...but judging from october, which is usually freezing by now...(and i still remember that HUGE blizzard we had here on halloween about ten years ago...)...it seems to me that the winter will be mild, like the last two.
(5 Comments | Comment on this)
5:54p i've succumbed 2 the mood of the day and i'm laying on the floor with dogs watching movies. watched "the cream will rise" , a documentary about sophie b. hawkins. i didn't know anything about her until now. VERY interesting movie. then i watched "vernon, florida" , but didn't like it as much as "gates of heaven"...now i'm searching for another 2 watch. jason called me and told me that he's not gonna go 2 this party he was gonna go to , nor is he gonna go to his piano lesson cause he doesn't feel well.
i feel fine tho. i feel pretty content :)
(8 Comments | Comment on this)
10:01p non-american camgirls
terri , who is doing a dissertation, is looking for non american camgirls...the ones that i knew aren't around anymore. and i know cyka from russia ( www.cykakam.com )

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Thursday, October 26th, 2000

Time Event
12:36a Ana Voog mugs and mousepads
ok, i'm trying out the cafepress thing :)
now u can buy ana voog t-shirts, mugs and mousepads!
i ordered 2 for myself :)

go here:

www.cafepress.com/voog
(8 Comments | Comment on this)
5:34p i went for a long long walk and got home just in the nick of time 'cause now there's a little thunderstorm outside :) mmmm, the smell of rain. i will treasure it as this might be the last thunderstorm until spring!

i got a crow's skul and a big red piece of wood i found. i'm gonna make it into a painting sculpture. i painted it in my mind on the way home
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Friday, October 27th, 2000

Time Event
5:46p a picture of a pregnant tori :)
go here:

http://www.thedent.com/jpgs/y2000/pregtorib.jpg

that's now my computer wallpaper :)

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Sunday, October 29th, 2000

Time Event
12:23a what i did today
i'm still here, just rejuvenating my energy for the next round of fun :)
watching a TON of movies. one with johnny depp and faye dunawaye and jerry lewis in it called "arizona...." something. i for got the name. and another that was called "miscrocosm...." something...and had cool music and footage of tiny insects and all that's really small..that whole universe.
then i watched a biography about carmen meranda...then i watched a contest of latin ballroom dancing. then i watched interviews with the biggest horror film makers and why they do what they do...which still is a mystery to me...and the inherent mysogynism in many of them was, of course, not addressed.

and now i going to watch a movie to fall asleep to. :)

mostly jason and i and the dogs laid in bed all day. a nice lazy saturday :)
(9 Comments | Comment on this)
9:18a pregnancy
on the subject of pregnancy...

does anyone know of "tricks" u can do 2 assure that your baby will be a girl?
like take a bunch of estrogen in some form or something?

u know how the fetius starts out being a girl...then a surge of testosterone turns it into a boy? is there a way to stop that surge of testosterone to make sure it'd be a girl?
(38 Comments | Comment on this)
10:09a "When a baby girl is born, she already has all the eggs in her ovaries that she will ever have. When your grandmother was pregnant with your mother, your mother had your undeveloped egg inside of her ovary~~
Pretty cool, huh?"

quote taken from:
http://www.geocities.com/~sister_zeus/List2.htm

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there's nothing one can do
whorlpool
2000-10-29 07:22
I don't think it's a good idea to play around by taking a bunch of pills; you wouldn't end up with a girl necessarily, but you might end up with a child with three heads.

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Re: there's nothing one can do
ana
2000-10-29 07:38
i am hardly suggesting that a woman take "a bunch of pills"
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Re: there's nothing one can do
whorlpool
2000-10-29 08:20
Oh, i know ana, i just think there are a lot of myths out there about determining the sex of one's child, and i really think it's a just that: myth.

Personally, if i were to have a child, i would want it to be a girl, too, but i really don't think there's a way to determine it.

Also, i have to admit that I get disturbed by the idea of only wanting a child if it's a girl (or a boy, for that matter). Since there's no way to determine 100% what someone's going to get, I think the people who are about to have a baby had BETTER be ready to accept and love whatever child they happen to give birth to. There are enough unwanted babies in the world. I'm not at all implying that you would have an unwanted baby; just giving my opinions here.

Thanks,

Scott

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Re: there's nothing one can do
ana
2000-10-29 08:48
of course u should be ready and be happy if it were a boy or a girl. but i think it's natural to want a girl more than a boy or a boy more than a girl.

---
(no subject)
kaela
2000-10-29 08:05
ok i am still thinking about this and I am seeing where this comes from.

Sex organs don't develop immediately in utero. So until they do, we're all essentially female if you define female as "lacking a penis". I'm not sure at what time the sex organs form, but when they do, it's a result of a genetically programmed surge of testosterone. That surge is predetermined by the presence of the Y chromosome and can't be changed. It can be interrupted or fail, but the individual wouldn't be a woman. It would be a male with a chromosomal mutuation and a whole bunch of problems. Usually chromosomal mutations in utero result in miscarriage or stillbirth. If the individual survives there is almost certainly some level of retardation.

now the anthropology major is done spouting off :)

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Re:
ana
2000-10-29 08:32
ah, ok :) yes...that makes sense. that they are all female (lacking a penis) until that testosterone surge.

i am reading lots about methods here:
http://www.babycenter.com/refcap/2915.html

but there are many ways..and some of them contradict each other

still very interesting anyway :)

--
Only the spirits know!
nettie
2000-10-29 13:20
When a person/human dies and lives out it's time ,on a higher level, and decides he/she is ready to re-enter the world again((reincarnate))(to try and accomplish or finish unfinished lessons)he/she will decide in which sex it wants to be. Their lifeplan is already mapped out, their miseries or troubles or happiness are already known before they even become concieved! Pretty weird huh!
They even chose to whom they are born to, who their parents, siblings and rest of the family are. spirit/soul only comes to a final rest in the womb when the mother feels what is called "quickening" and from then on their memory of past is bleak, as to not hinder them from accomplishing what they have returned to accomplish so they can live out this life in a totally human form with no benefits of their wisdom from their higher life.

just finished reading...
James Van Praagh
Reaching to heaven

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Re: Only the spirits know!
ana
2000-10-29 14:32
ya , i know that already

but i also get 2 choose which child i want, as well. it goes both ways

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Re: Only the spirits know!
nettie
2000-10-29 19:33
in "my" opinion, you do not get to choose the sex of your unborn child as an "earthbound creature" by finding "tricks" to manipulate that happening. As a soul of a higher level...in your previous life(lives) you have already decided...you just dont know it yet. Only my opinion.

I knew deep down to my ankles I was having and wanted a girl, far b4 I concieved her, just a strong strong feeling or maybe insight. Because for some reason I felt I had alot to teach a female(infant, toddler or whatever) and woila!
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Re: Only the spirits know!
ana
2000-10-29 20:02
maybe my "higher self" or "previous lives" decided that i would have a girl using "tricks"

the universe is infinite

so using "tricks" is just anoother way of expressing the infinite choices that we can make

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(no subject)
zombiekiller
2000-10-29 13:33
Whoa now, maybe I missed a post or two... Why the sudden interest in babies? Is this information for you or someone else???
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Re:
ana
2000-10-29 15:11
i'm just curious about everything :)
(Reply to this)

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Monday, October 30th, 2000

Time Event
2:45p i am looking through all my polaroids, about 164 of them...and pondering all the different ways i could do things with them. now that i can make them into transparencies...it opens up a whole new world.

and i am boiling the crow's skull i found the other day to get everything off it. then i'll bleach it a bit...and then that is going to be part of this painting/scupture i am going 2 make.
i'm listening 2 kate bush.

i am going 2 see if i can sew the transparencies with my sewing machine...if i can remember how 2 thread that thing.
either that or punch holes in the corners and tie them together that way.

it would make a neat wall hanging..and if u hung it in a window, it'd be transparent.

i am also thinking of tying many together into a cylinder shape...then it could sit on a table and u would be able 2 see through it on all angles.
too bad i don't know how 2 make lamps.

actually i COULD make them into lamp shades :) i think... i shall experiment!
(7 Comments | Comment on this)
4:08p i got my fluevog vision shoes! they make me 5 inches taller...so i am 5'7" when i'm wearing them. man, u tall people have a whole different outlook! and 5'7" isn't even that tall!

i will take some cool pix of them for sure! :)

but right now i'm watchinh oprah and pondering my polaroid situation

--
Tuesday, October 31st, 2000

Time Event
3:02p ohmigod! i slept until 2:30pm! and it's 70 degrees outside! aaaa! must try 2 get ready super fast 2 go 4 a walk now that it gets dark at 5!

and happy halloween! i have nothing special planned. i didn't even carve a pumpkin, and i used 2 be so into halloween.

so what are your plans? gonna go to any parties or anything? and if so, what will be your costume? :)

---
Wednesday, November 1st, 2000

Time Event
11:37a men's rights
what do u think of this?
some guy posted this in my public forum called anarchy

Posted by Justin Zellers - on October 31, 2000 at 20:37:51:

If you think that women actually have it worse than men do in this day and age, think again. I am a male rights activist and I want to get the word out that there is a backlash to pop-feminism just around the corner, so for all of you feminists, you better read up on our topics and prepare! Here are some very informative web-addresses to some sites that will enlighten you and show you what's on the minds of many men these days. Take a good look! Thanks.

click on the links 2 get there

Men Must Stand Up

The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our Young Men

In Defense of Men

Rape and Gender

No place to run for male victims of domestic abuse: Shelters, support groups rare for men

A Man's Right To Choose

Neonatal Circumcision Reconsidered

Male Circumcision and the Rights of the Child

another backlash.com article about men's oppression

Men, your time has come. The backlash begins

a post in egroups

Why a men's movement?
Why should you care?

War Against Boys

Unjust War Against Boys Heats Up!

Our strategy

What Everyone Should Know about Feminist Issues
The Male-Positive Perspective

If Girls Can Wear Pants ...

Judge Orders School to Allow Boy to Wear Girls' Clothing

mens-rights.org

mens-rights.org article

Have sex with a woman.
Go to jail.
What it means to be a man today and Lies Women Tell Men

mensactivism.org

rulymob.com (where u can download a short book, or read it online)

--------------
in other news:
it's 63 degrees in here with 99% humidity!
NINETY NINE!!!

everything feels soggy. it's almost foggy outside.

i gotta get motivated tho 2 do a few errands today.

---
Men's and Women's Rights
olivia
2000-11-01 12:10
This might make interesting reading, later. However I don't need to read a thing, to know that not all mother's get child support in this country, and a man can get away with murdering a woman. And the President can treat a woman like a side of beef. Those things are obvious. Untill those things change, I see no need to read anything. Hell no women don't have the same rights as men.
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men's rights
whorlpool
2000-11-01 12:52
Someday in the future, when women are treated as equals everywhere in the world...no wait...when women are treated as equals ANYWHERE in the world, maybe I'll sit back for a moment and wonder if men are being stepped on.

Until then, the men's rights movement can go to hell.

Scott
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from what i've read....
gelasia
2000-11-01 13:23
From what I've read from the supplied links, the men who need rights are the ones who are losers.

My partner is worthy of 'male rights', which in my definition is to be treated as the one I love. I wouldn't fall for the 'pop open a cold one' and 'watch the tube' kind of guy.

We don't even own a tv, and when he drinks, (which is rarely btw) , it's a half glass of wine.

I'm not a feminist. Or a masculinist. I'm a humanist.

Loser men feel how they feel about women because they deserve it. The same goes true for women.

I think bashing a sex in general does not help the problem. It is all an individual basis, and others should clarify that.

Instead of 'women want money' say, 'greedy women want money' or 'women who have been treated like shit by some guy in her past wants money'.

If you generalize, the ones who are decent will come roaring to defend themselves.

But that is what you want, isn't it?

Some sort of rape of the sexual classes, and you (male activists, I must clarify) take pleasure in the struggle of defense.

I brush you off like a flea on my leg.

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what feminism means
ana
2000-11-01 14:23
i never understood why a woman would say she is not a feminist. feminism doesn't mean "i hate men", or "women should rule the world" etc etc

here is the definition:
fem·i·nism (fm-nzm)
n.

Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
The movement organized around this belief.

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what humanism means
gelasia
2000-11-01 14:55
Hi ana,

I think feminism is great, but not geared towards my complete beliefs.

Humanism is:
1. A system of thought that centers on humans and their values, capacities, and worth.
2. Concern with the interests, needs, and welfare of humans.
3. The study of the humanities; learning in the liberal arts.

I have been a member of N.O.W. and marched for women's rights, but I don't consider myself a feminist for I also see the pros and cons of each sex. [an example] I don't see men have babies, and having two children, one without any drugs, at home and in water, it was the best experience of my life. How can a man have this? I don't think we should mess with nature just so a man can experience this.

What we as women can do that men cannot, equals what men can do that women cannot do alone. We need and depend on each sex for the survival of humanity as a whole. Sure, I agree there are a multitude of things we all can accomplish as a man or a woman, and switch gender roles (a female firefighter, a male nurse), but some things will always be unequal.

Humanism does not say it disregards equal rights. It just expands on it.

Thanks for replying to clarify feminism as it was intended to be, and show the stigmas that have become attached to it.
(Reply to this)

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Re: what humanism means
verbminx
2000-11-02 03:27
Humanism will become a relevant alternative to feminism on and not before the day when all women are treated like humans, or humanely, or with humanity, or however you wish to put it, rather than having the will of the other sex forced upon them, or being seen as inferior in any way.

If anyone is interested in a book giving an overview of various movements in feminism, past and present, and some ideas for the future, check out Manifesta by Jennifer Baumgardner and Amy Richards. I am reading it now & find it useful for understanding the stances of people who have been just names to me - for instance, everyone and their brother has heard of Gloria Steinem, but ignorance of the work of, say, Susan Brownmiller, or Andrea Dworkin (possibly the most hated feminist alive today - even by some other feminists), bell hooks, etc, can help someone to lose the context of an argument.

I realise that there is a lot of privilege involved here. I am white, I am heterosexual, I am relatively well-educated, and I am not wondering where my next meal is coming from. If I were not, my energies might be more focussed on things like racial equality, or gay/lesbian/bi/trans rights, or poverty activism (all things I believe in, and will argue for if the topic comes around or if I see an obvious abuse happening in front of me, but aren't of primary interest to me). However, I am female, and there are many ways in which we areoppressed, and we comprise fully HALF THE HUMAN RACE. The problem in all those areas is not necessarily one of sexes (all men are not the enemy, just as all white people or straight people or christian people are not the enemy). However, oppressors must learn to end oppression in one way or another, and I think the oppression of women is probably the largest problem of all, cutting across practically any cultural line I can think of. When everyone treats everyone else both as an equal and as they themselves would wish to be treated, then there won't be problems of this kind anymore.

Until then, the men's rights movement can suck my big fat hairy codpiece.

---
Re: what feminism means
dankitti
2000-11-01 18:59
"[Rape] is nothing more or less than a conscious process of intimidation by which all men keep all women in a state of fear"
-- Susan Brownmiller

ALL men? ALL women?
that DOES look like "i hate men" to me.

altho' this quote seems more reasomable:
"By anatomical fiat -- the inescapable construction of their genital organs -- the human male was a natural predator and the human female served as his natural prey." (Against Our Will, Susan Brownmiller, p 6)

but does feminism have to be male-bashing?

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Re: what feminism means
ana
2000-11-01 21:21
feminism is not male bashing...as u can clearly see by the definition i posted in here from the dictionary.

who is this susan person?

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Re: what feminism means
myredself
2000-11-01 22:47
Susan Brownmiller was part of the second wave of feminism and her most well-known contributions are her books Femininity and Against Our Will: Men, Women, and Rape, the latter of which was the first solid, historical, social constructionist work on rape. Last year she published In Our Time: Memoir of a Revolution, a book about the second wave.
(Reply to this)

Re: what feminism means
myredself
2000-11-01 22:42
Susan Brownmiller was not referring to individual men but to patriarchy as a system, although I agree that the quote is misleading. However, if you actually read Against Our Will you will see that it is the institution of patriarchy she is talking about.

I have seen very little feminism that is male-bashing. I see that very much of the world is misogynist, however.

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Re: what feminism means
selfisinbed
2000-11-03 00:28
u r right- patriarchy clearly does not work-
any concepts that divide or encourage artificial hierarchies are inherently flawed. i tend to look at the psychology of gender politics and am disaapointed to encounter both genders perpetuating the same faulty beliefs in different language.
the originns of this need to quantify and seperate based on gender is born out of envy and fear - that seems regrettably inherent to our (western-judeo-christain-cartesian...) culture. its just so multi-dimensional and complex-
i think the envy is directed towards the womb- - and then again it might regard shame about the universal dependence of all humans upon the mother figure. I am a man- but i am my mother's son-
i am rambling incoherently- but i send you kudos redself- you come acrooss as being strong and smart-and really interesting:)
i dislike monolthic statements about anything- especially stuff like this- i think if there is any truth it is a paradox- men and women need each other- we also project our fears onto each other-
and we end up suffering instead of marveling at how beautiful we all are (this is my first ever post- i hope i didnt dork out)-- hi ana its me N__l :) [it was supposed to be username selfishinbed- but somehow i am sslfisinbed-oh well i surrender]

---
looking at the BOTTOM LINE
olivia
2000-11-01 13:26
I clicked on "mensactivism.org", then "sponsors" then "IHateFeminism.com", which brought me to an article called "MOre Lies And More Deceitful
Propagnda from....guess which paper?"
Then it quoted Julie Churchill from "the quardian"
There is a Rebuttal. By whom? It doesn't say on the page, but it quotes statistics.. statistics "taken from 'Anticocial Behavior by Young People" by Sir
Michael Rutter, Henri Giller and Ann Hagell (1998), and who are they? Exactly? Just a thought. If I'm reading statistics I look for the bottom line.
(Reply to this)

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very calmly put dear:), I agree whole-heartedly, too. The day women are treated as equals, the day our bodies are glorified and worshipped for our differences, the day sexy, half naked women stop selling top magazines and selling in the media, and we aren't abused for the mere act of a man getting off, will be the day i click on one of those links. :)Blessed be ana!
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yah tell that to all the men hooting at me
dreamgarbo
2000-11-01 14:06
It seems every time I step foot out my frount gate there is some guy there waiting to oggel at my breasts try to grab my ass or tell me every little discusting thought that is going through his small little mind...yah im not saying every guy in the world does this only the ones in San Francisco do RIGHT!! well I for one don't know any guy who at one time in his life did'nt use his male influence to get everything he wanted. The truth is they are so used to this standerd that they don't even realize they are doing it. There for they have done nothing wrong and they are the victoms ahhhhaaaa...yah right just pulling out the few occurances of men getting abused will never make up for hundreds of years in which we have suffered and still suffer at the hand of the sexualy driven male gender i for one think he sould dress as a women for one day and see if he has it sooo bad as a man...thank you

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Re: yah tell that to all the men hooting at me
dankitti
2000-11-01 20:51
you're right i DON'T realize i am using my male influence to get everything i always wanted. how could i NOT notice. er, maybe it has something to do with the fact that i am NOT getting everything i always wanted. i suppose NO WOMAN has ever used her feminine influence to get what she wants.

of course the part about the hundreds of years of women being abused is spot on. and the men waiting to sexually harass you must seriously go away. anyway i guess i could point out that i am not like that. although oddly, the right to dress as a women IS one of the rights that some men are fighting for. not me, of course!

maybe while they are discussing Men's Rights they should also discuss men having Respect For Women. that might be interesting. i didn't see that on any of their pages!
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Re: yah tell that to all the men hooting at me
jrtatsc
2000-11-02 11:19
Yep, respect for others is vitally important.

As is clarity of thought whenever possible (not that I can achieve that very often myself, btw.), as is avoiding knee-jerk reactions to things.

Women are equal to men, and some people, both men and women, just don't get it. We are all equal, but we are also all different... as has been discussed at several places in these various threads.
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Re: yah tell that to all the men hooting at me
jrtatsc
2000-11-02 07:03
"...just pulling out the few occurrences of men getting abused will never make up for hundreds of years in which we have suffered and still suffer at the hand of the sexually driven male gender..."

You are absolutely right. Nothing will EVER make up for ANY injustice that was done in the past. So please don't wait for someone to "fix" past injustices, but absolutely DO hope and work to prevent future injustice.

My point of view on this sort of thing is: Yes, black people were brought to the USA as slaves and have been treated like shit for hundreds of years. I, a white male, am absolutely NOT personally responsible for that. I am responsible for my own actions and attitude, and I'm responsible for teaching my children how to act towards people, both those who are apparently the same as them and those who are apparently different from them. Period.

The way women, and people in the minority (or more generally, people without power in society) have been treated and are still being treated, is absolutely terrible in many cases, but I am not responsible for that treatment just because I'm a white male.

I respect both men and women, but I'm certainly not going to say that I have the same feelings toward men and women. Equal pay for equal work? Absolutely! Equal opportunity? Positively! But only if the person, male OR female, can do the job. Period.

That's it for now.

---
Re: Equal pay and equal opportunity
olivia
2000-11-02 20:48
It really goes a lot deeper than that, for all minorities. You may believe in that concept of equal pay and equal opportunity, but when you work side by side with a woman doing the same work for the same pay, and then maybe you look around and see that she's the only one, and most of you are male, are you going to find fault with her work, and maybe scrutinize it more carefully? Are you going to maybe scrutinize her dressing habits? Are you going to ask her to join you "and the boys" for beers after work? What if she's not into sports and all the guys are? Will you laugh at her and call her a lesbian, and play other office politics that will harm her career or the way others see her? It's easy to SAY you believe in equal opportunity, but it's another thing to live it. And it's so EASY to get away with all of the above, why not?
......been there, done that.
----
Re: Equal pay and equal opportunity
jrtatsc
2000-11-03 06:52
"It really goes a lot deeper than that, for all minorities. You may believe in that concept of equal pay and equal opportunity, but when you work side by side with a woman doing the same work for the same pay, and then maybe you look around and see that she's the only one, and most of you are male, are you going to find fault with her work, and maybe scrutinize it more carefully?"

Actually, no. I work at an engineering company, and the great majority of the engineers (including me) ARE male. As far as I can see, the engineers here are judged by their work. My sister is an engineer here too, and she's in a higher position than I am, and is paid more, because she has more experience. Period.

"Are you going to maybe scrutinize her dressing habits?"

If you're asking me whether I look at women and at how they dress, the answer is yes, of course I do. I'm a heterosexual man. If you're asking me whether I look at my female co-workers and criticize the way they dress, then no, I don't.

"Are you going to ask her to join you "and the boys" for beers after work?"

Sure, if I ever did that myself.

"What if she's not into sports and all the guys are?"

Not all the guys here are heavily into sports, but what if they were?

"Will you laugh at her and call her a lesbian, and play other office politics that will harm her career or the way others see her?"

No, of course not.

"It's easy to SAY you believe in equal opportunity, but it's another thing to live it."

Well, I do live it, even if others don't. So stop generalizing, please. Not all men are the assholes you think they are.

"And it's so EASY to get away with all of the above, why not?"

Why not? Because I try to respect people, and I have some self-respect, too. Apparently my parents raised me better than the vast majority of men, huh?

"...been there, done that."

Again, I believe that it happens. I believe it happened to you. I just don't believe it happens everywhere or to every woman in every situation, and I KNOW that not every man does it.

---
Re: yah tell that to all the men hooting at me
jrtatsc
2000-11-02 07:15
Now to respond to another part of your post...

"It seems every time I step foot out my front gate there is some guy there waiting to ogle my breasts , grab my ass, or tell me every little disgusting thought that is going through his small little mind... yah im not saying every guy in the world does this only the ones in San Francisco do RIGHT!!"

So... EVERY guy you ever see does these things to you? WOW! That's amazing. Either every man in your area is incredibly stupid and weak willed, or you have some weird control over them, because I have never in my entire life done any of those things to a woman I didn't know. And I doubt that most men do those sorts of things on a regular basis, either.

from dreamgarbo's bio:

"yes well im a artist.
im a girl around 22
im a skinny girl
i have big eyes
and short hair
i like the company or both men and women
im a nude art model
i love my life
i appreciate everything

FIN"

Have a great day, and an interesting time discussing these issues, everyone!

---
Re: yah tell that to all the men hooting at me
ana
2000-11-02 09:26
she said SOME guy , not ALL guys!
sheesh.

and if u are not a part of oppressing women then thank u. but if u are taking offense to the fact that MANY men not ALL men oppress women and u do not oppress women, we are not talking ABOUT YOU.

why don't u add something helpful to the conversation if u are so HELPFUL to the women around u in your life? because getting a snippy and implying that this women that u responded to is lying or exagerrating the truth...then THAT in itself IS oppression.

so you now have oppressed a woman by your post.
GET IT?

we are not CRAZY. this is happening all around us. i get it EVERY SINGLE TIME I GO OUTSIDE FOR ALL OF MY LIFE!

but the men who ogle at us and said extremely offensive nasty SCARY shit don't DO that if another man is around usually. so perhaps u are just not seeing that it is happening.

it's all very insidious

don't imply that we are making this up
this is reality
---
Re: yah tell that to all the men hooting at me
jrtatsc
2000-11-02 10:40
Ana,

Sorry, but I strive for clarity and precision in my writing and speech, and the post that I replied to was full of generalizations and exaggerations.

"It seems every time I step foot out my front gate there is some guy there waiting to ogle my breasts , grab my ass, or tell me every little disgusting thought that is going through his small little mind... yah im not saying every guy in the world does this only the ones in San Francisco do RIGHT!!"

Ana, surely you aren't saying that dreamgarbo is welcome to be sarcastic but I am not, simply because you agree with her point of view whereas I don't agree with everything she said. I really hope that's not what you're saying, or at least implying. I sure wasn't trying to offend anyone, and if you are trying to say that I have oppressed her by not immediately agreeing with her, and by being sarcastic about it (while at the same time she was sarcastic in her own post), then I clearly have no idea what oppression is.

It almost sounds like you're saying that those who think they are oppressed are welcome to use any tool they want to, whereas those who they see as oppressing them, simply by being male, must be careful about what they say so as not to be offensive and oppresive.

I'm not implying that you are making this up at all! I'm just saying that not every man does it.

By the way, I never claimed to be particularly helpful to the women in my life, so let's get that straight. I'm also not particularly helpful to the men in my life, for what that's worth. I mostly just try to take care of myself and my family.

That's it for now; just wanted to clarify a few things.
---
Re: yah tell that to all the men hooting at me
ana
2000-11-02 10:53
i am pissed at u for making fun of her statement that when she goes out men harrass her.

that is not something that u CAN disagree with.
that's not an opinion that she stated in that sentence. that is a reality that she is going through...and it's a fact. not an opinion.

can u understand the difference between an opinion and a fact?

u cannot look at a table and tell everyone it's really a chair. unless u are crazy
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Re: yah tell that to all the men hooting at me
jrtatsc
2000-11-02 11:07
"i am pissed at u for making fun of her statement that when she goes out men harrass her.

that is not something that u CAN disagree with."

I don't disagree with her. I'm sure men do harrass her, and if that's what she had said, I wouldn't have responded the way I did. I was responding to her sarcasm and generalizations.

"can u understand the difference between an opinion and a fact?

u cannot look at a table and tell everyone it's really a chair. unless u are crazy"

Yep, I sure can tell the difference. A table is a table.

Feel free to be pissed at me, but be clear about the fact that I wasn't making fun of her for saying that men harrass her. I would never make fun of a woman for saying that.

I was responding to her sarcastically implying that all men do it, not just those in San Francisco.

But anyway...
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Re: yah tell that to all the men hooting at me
ana
2000-11-02 11:29
she did NOT say EVERY guy!
she said SOME guy

there is a big difference

pay attention more closely
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Re: yah tell that to all the men hooting at me
dreamgarbo
2000-11-02 12:37
well yes about 90% of men walking down the street do these things to me and i don't really care if its not every man in the world doing it to me all it takes is one! and im sure your a very upstanding guy and would never do any of the things i stated in my entry of course the siviling drooling pigs that do this would never stand up to defend there gender at least I hope not because it would'nt help your fight for male activisum..you want to hear a new one i got today walking down polk st "girl i sure would like to f**k your little ass" discusting, repulsive, completly degrading YES, YES, YES. And this is why i made the posting just to maybe let you know that this is out there in force. This is real.
Tell me when is the last time a women came up to you and said such things
---
Re: yah tell that to all the men hooting at me
jrtatsc
2000-11-02 13:11
Thanks for replying... I do appreciate it.

"well yes about 90% of men walking down the street do these things to me"

To be honest, if such things happened to me, I doubt that I'd ever go outside, so I salute you for being so strong. Seriously.

" and i don't really care if its not every man in the world doing it to me all it takes is one!"

All it takes is one to make you feel degraded and like shit, I'm sure, but I really hope you aren't saying that all it takes is one to make you be pissed at men in general. I'm very sorry this happens to you, no one should be subjected to such abuse.

"...and i'm sure you're a very upstanding guy and would never do any of the things i stated in my entry"

Nope, I actually have some respect and some manners and some common sense.

"...of course the sniveling drooling pigs that do this would never stand up to defend their gender, at least I hope not because it wouldn't help your fight for male activism.."

I'm not fighting for male activism, or for male rights, or for anything like that. But if some jerk who would say something like that to a woman tried to defend his actions, well, there IS no defense, and it would just make him look even stupider than he already is.

"you want to hear a new one i got today walking down polk st "girl i sure would like to f**k your little ass" disgusting, repulsive, completely degrading YES, YES, YES."

That is disgusting, you're right, and very degrading.

"And this is why i made the posting just to maybe let you know that this is out there in force. This is real. Tell me when is the last time a women came up to you and said such things?"

Of course that's never happened to me, for at least three reasons I can think of right off hand. I'm male, women generally don't do stuff like that, and I'm not all that attractive anyway.
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no subject)
satoreye
2000-11-01 15:01
I think that sometimes that indivuals in this beacratic system get lost.The push for civil rights and right for women are merely token.The attitudes of society has to evolve and then there will be shleters for men,because society will take care of the needs of the disenfranchised not matter what the race color , sex and cost.
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(Comment on this)
10:24a cinnamon poptarts, yum! :)
(Comment on this)
3:26p i am discovering some cool things that i can do with my polaroid time zero film.
firstly, as many of u already know, u can make marks on the picture using a blunt object...
i still haven't gotten the hang of that yet at all...but i will keep trying
i guess u can heat up polaroids with a hair dryer and then still keep manipulating them.
i tried that but did a bad job of it.
it's all in the timing.

but one thing i discovered that is really easy and wonderful..is to cut away the white edges of the polaroid...then slowly peel the back off ( after the picture is fully developed...i'd wait maybe even a few hours )
then take the top part that has the picture and go to the sink and wash off the rest of the white that's on there, then VOILA! u have a transparency :) and can lay other transparencies over it to create new effects!

so i am really excited about this and this broadens greatly what i can do with my polaroid camera! :)
(2 Comments | Comment on this)
4:46p i just came up with a good analogy about astrology and life in general.
astrology is like if someone were 2 give u quite a few material objects ( chair, tv, chewing gum, frog, keys, string, 4 glasses of water and a handkerchief..etc )...then said, " go make something out of this..or do what u want to do with this"

astrology gives us certain seemingly unmoveable aspects of our being ( like a chair is as much a chair as an aries person is an aries person) , but u could take that chair and break it apart and sand it or paint it and make it into something else...like a mobile.

or u could take that chair and burn it then make a drawing with the charcoaled remains
onto the handkerchief , wrap the frog in it with string and set it on top of the tv as u chew gum and slowly drink 4 glasses of water and then throw away the keys.

life is what u can creatively do with the aspects/"blessings"/"curses" of your emotional/spiritual/physical/intellectual self ( duh :)
(7 Comments | Comment on this)
9:08p i added a whole ton of more anapix to the cycler

now i am working on a new anagram. i'm saving a lot of text from newsgroups and bbs.

jason just got home from practicing free jazz with milo fine

then he went straight 2 bed 'cause he has a bad stomache ache

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male rights activist??
arguich811
2000-11-01 16:04
I think that any man claiming that he is "a male rights activist" who feels threathened by "pop-feminism" (whatever that is supposed to be) is rather disturbed, or at least very confused: there is a huge difference between a fundamental inequality of rights (which is definitely in the advantage of the male gender)and 'having a subjective feeling of unease with members of the other sex'(I was about to say 'opposite' as I learned in school, which only illustrates the thorough sexism of Western culture).
I do not think feminism equals 'intimidating women'. I think feminism represents a certain way of looking at the world, at social interation, and NOT just between men (on the one side) and women (on the other). I think whoever becomes thus 'aware' of the sexism in our society (or should I say societies)will not be able to maintain that 'men are victimized by pop-feminism'(still have no clue as to the meaning of this word). Cultural sexim can be changed as far as one can change (social)institutions (do not vote for Bush), but to change a psychological (cognitive)culture will regretfully a struggle of many generations. I do not like to be regarded as a neanderthalic male, but I do not think women are to blame for such a stigmatization: there really are such neanderthals among us (referring to other men) and we can only hope they will suffer the same fate as their prehistoric ancestors.

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Re: male rights activist??
dankitti
2000-11-01 19:10
now that you mention it, what IS pop-feminism? i just realized i have no idea what that means. anyway, i think we should get to where men understand that feminism should NOT be threatening to them, and it SHOULDN'T be. but i have seen "feminist" quotes saying things like "all men are rapista and that's all they will ever be" (quoted in sstar's livejournal, now deleted) and i disagree with that gender bashing too. i mean TOO, in the sense that all the gender discrimination by men against women is very BAD, and UNFAIR. and to think men are technically a 'minority' -- we don't act like it!

that's not to say that men should never have rights. that would be wrong TOO. see how that works?
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no subject)
johnboy48
2000-11-01 16:48
Ya, when I hold open a door for someone and get 'What the f*** are You doing? I'm big, 'n mean, 'n tough enough to whip your fat a** and Still open my own door.', then yep, so-called 'feminism' has gone way to dam far! That's happened once in probably 10,000 doors I've held and related courtesies that make life much nicer for all. I'm 6 foot, 300 pounds, so yep, I can carry heavy loads and reach higher than the Average 'feminist', soccer mom, or any over distaff flavor. It also means I break the occasional chair just sitting in it and can't squeeze into a small place or Carry A Baby as well as our average sister, but neither situation makes me better or worse, just viva la difference. It Does imply that for the hundreds, thousands or whatever number of years you feel humanity has been on this earth, I've been able to physically impose my will those smaller than me. Until recently, this was absolutely expected, not just accepted or tolerated. Western cultures have made vast progress in humanizing us, so reason and general fair play win over brute strength. This change is Not yet even close to an absolute (see Ana's thoughts of bodyguards just to have a relaxed walk outside). If feminism and civil rights movements have made a couple of slightly overboard steps, it's more than balanced by the awesome prejudices I think are still in almost everyone's heads. We may evolve into true 'humanists' some day, celebrating our minor differences and comfortable with the huge similarities. Today there is still a massive amount of negativity in perceived differences and the Rich, White Guys still really do have the power. Not every bit of it and not only rich, and white and guys, but way more than a fair share so prejudice from rich and/or white and or guys hurts the world way more than poor and or nonwhite and or grrls. Dam that was verbose! How about the following instead!

Inyerface feminism might back off a tad, but feminism, equal rights has a long, long way to go!
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"men's rights"
babjohn
2000-11-01 18:22
Ana, thanks for helping to expose these ideas for discussion.
I attended a meeting of a group espousing this stuff, mistakenly thinking it was a constructive effort to deal with child custody, visitation, child support issues. Many of the titles listed by the guy who e-mailed you are familiar from the literature at the meeting. Too many of the guys at the meeting were scary, with nasty attitudes about women. However, some seemed like decent men who had been stomped on pretty hard by the court and/or social service system. In their cases, often the stomping had come at the hands of women working in agencies. They indicted the alleged unfairness of those particular people, not the gender.
Anyone who responds to problems in life by blaming one or the other gender loses credibility immediately.
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My Answers
maw
2000-11-01 20:39
I notice that most of the posts here are from women. So it is with some trepidation that I post mine as a guy.

Ana, you asked in your caption on cam1: "is feminism harming men? are men's rights being taken away?". That's easy for me to answer: No and No. We live in a generally paternalistic society in the US and in most of the rest of the world for that matter. Men and women have both different needs and the same ones as well. Men mostly wind up in charge. They set the agendas and generally have an easier time fitting into society. That's my view anyway. It is obvious to me. It makes me unhappy.

From my youngest days, my dad taught me that women are the essential gender for the human race. We had discussed and argued the details of this notion over the years. The details don't really matter to me. I was given a sense of respect for and admiration for women that too few men have these days. I have often wished to live in a maternal society. This view has greatly influenced my life and my views of what is most important.

So when I was in college I considered myself a feminist. I went to NOW rallies. I still have a button here which is blue with a yellow coat hanger on it. I kept it because it was important to me then and it still is today. The feminist movement is no longer the same as it was in those days and I have had little involvement with it in
many years.

Often these days, what I hear from people in the feminist movement, tends to be anti male as much as it is pro female. I do not like this change. There is some anger and bitterness there that does not sit well with me. I do not feel threatened by this because I have never felt included in the standard male stereotype. I don't like it though. It seems less effective. It seems to have become more negative over the years. I wish I could have my old feminism back. I have missed it for a long time now. The current movement, if there is such a thing, seems to have little room for me.

So for you women out there, let me say that I think I know, better than most men, where you are coming from. I think i feel and think and believe more as you might than I do most men. That's just fine with me because that is who I am. I like myself that way. I miss my dad and wish he were still here so that we could discuss this stuff some more. I really miss that.

And for you guys, I wish you could see the world just a bit more like I do, as I think women do. I think you would be happier that way. I think the world would be better that way. I think the angry and bitter tone I see doesn't help much but I know that most of you would not change your views on this in any case.

So I hope you males feeling threatened will feel less so. I hope you feminist females will show less anger toward that male stereotype. I hope you women get more equal power in our society. Hell, I hope you take charge of it. And I hope my dreams of a better world will some day come true. In the mean time I continue to dream.

Mike

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(no subject)
natrix
2000-11-01 22:14
I think this boy is misguided. Everyone is entiled to their opinion... and that's his opinion. If feminism is "harming" men in such a horrible way, why do we hold the majority of political offices, executive positions, and the majority of the wealth in this nation.

Certainly one must realize that without feminism, womens rights would be virtually non-existent.

I was raised by a single mother and my sister, and I can tell you that we (men & women) do not play on a level field. America is supposed to encourage freedom. How can women enjoy freedom when they are oppressed because of stereotypes placed by society?

I think it would be better to take a look and see how this sexism became so institutionalized to the point where a man feels threatened by a woman achieving an equal status.

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(no subject)
jadenkun
2000-11-02 03:01
Hmmm... ya know... I think the whole thing behind this is the same thing that happens when ANYONE turns the tables... the side in control gets worried about the things that they did to the "submissive side" once they take a stand... In other words... there are men out there who are worried about feminism becoming more than what it's intended to be and are worried about a kind of "amazonian" kind of thing happening where men are reduced to what women once were... Therefore, they try to start a movement in order to maintain a kind of balance, a way to fight back. I think they just need to be shown that all women want are to be treated as equals... once the fear of domination by a group that has been supressed is shown to be simply an action to bring all humans onto the same level, the fear will subside and the ones who feel threatened will be more willing to work with those groups instead of blatantly flaming them... oh well.. C'est la vie, I always say...
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No, I absolutely don't feel repressed...
diarmaid
2000-11-02 06:54
I live in a town that is famaous for the many people here that are in a way 'feminist' 'leftist' and all that stuff. When I came here, the - let's call it 'militaristic feminist' movement was still very strong, a time when you had the feeling to excuse yourself for beeing a male (there was a poster on many walls showing a mummed woman with a gun and a writing: 'rapists, we get you all!'). All this was very understandable (it has changed since then, even here the people get more consum-orientated, less politically active. But the spirit is still there). We have a history (all over the world) where woman were and are suppressed, seen as birthmachines which no other possibility to work as with their children, in the kitchen and to go to church (in german it makes a nice alliteration: Kinder, Kirche, Küche, the famous three K's). It was really a long patriaralic tradition , a supression system and woman were not the only victims. Think of all the guys, that are to be son and heir, that get the full dose of 'fatherly love'. Don't you all know th sentence 'I only want your best...'? Yeah, some clever man once said: this best is nothing else but your soul. And the mothers, that - mostly in fear of the fathers, in an attempt to shield ther children - are nothing but handymen to the faters, sometimes out nof sheer impossibility to even think, the MAN can be wrong and she as a WOMAN has the right to kick the asshole in the balls. It was alway a thing that's hard th understand for me, that mothers allow fathers to do what they do. Not to give a false impression, i had no violent father - he was just na sort of emotional idiot :-) - and I left this behind me (hopefully). Point is, we carry a lot of real BULLSHIT with us, one way or the other, taught by our parents, by the tv, by priests. Ever thought of the sentence in the bible (I guess it's Paul) 'the woman should be subject of the man? And, as a sort of candy aftwerwards, the mentioning that the man is oblieged to care for the woman. I'd call this better petholding. Let's face the fact: we are raised in that spirit. And it's no use founding groups, that give us the feeling that we aren't as bad, as many woman say. If we aren't as bad the solution is easy: let's behave different. And that's something, that is shurely getting noticed by the other sex. What the hell is the use of making lists 'of the lies woman tell about and to men' (I confess I didn't read much more that the titels of the listing - would have laught, if it hadn't been meant serious). Stuff like this might be partly true, but what are we? Children playing in kindergarten? 'Baaaahhh, Mummy, she took my THINGI away? He? There are facts e.g. like woman getting most of thetime less money for the same work, and the difficulties man might have to get in contact with woman without the danger of getting sued for sexual haressment (if thats not true, please forget it, all my info on this subject I got from newspapers about the US, and I don't trust the papers too much). But after all: The solution ist not in anything outside of us. Shurely it is absolutely necessary to give a legal frame (equal money for equal work etc.). But the keypoint is: How we get along with others, be it male or female. Iside we have to let go these predjudices. Of what interest can it be, is a woman thinks I am an asshole just because I am a man (it is something totally different if I am behaving like one!!!). I don't want to follow a set iof rules, that is a definition, a model, pressed over the woeld. Don't get me wrong, a lot of things are still to be legally fixed, or at least brought to reality. But my acting shoulsd first of all be guided of love, freedom, rspect and understanding of others (be they male ore female). Love freedom respect are to me three words for the same thing. And are to be felt to yourself as well (if nor at first). Then are you able to interact with the other gender without all this rule-and-role--bullshit: as a human beeing
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no subject)
hercorpse
2000-11-02 09:02
I must say many excellent view points here.
Reading over the posts though did bring some questions to my mind:

In the battle for equality of men and women (not that I am condoning violance or abuse of any kind) why does it seem still too widely accepted to be ok for a man to hit a man, a woman to hit a woman, and NOT a man to hit a woman?

Just another issue mixed in with the countless differences in society. But I am curious as to what anyone thinks about it. In almost every experience I have had where a man has hit a woman, that man is viewed almost as less of a human being. Yet if a woman hits another woman or a man hits another man the reaction from others is never as harsh.

Really I do not agree with any violance and have always found myself not having more sympathy in such a circumstance.

I mean if we want true equality that is one of the things that may come with it.
(I don't mean to take up so much space about this and am trying to get this across as brief as my mind will let me)

Also I see that many people find it laughable for a woman to hit a man, and even more so many men are ashamed if it occurs and often hide it because it makes them feel less superior. Again this is how I have always seen it, and I am sure many have had different experiences with it, as well as points of view regarding it. I am just curious... what do you think?
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Violence
diarmaid
2000-11-02 14:07
Might be, that violende to a member of the same sex is something more accepted, because it deals less obviously with power. Ok, in case of two males beating each other there is a big part 'tradition' in it (don't get me wrong: I hate violence). And it's always about the question: who is the big cheese. It's - I guess - all about power. That makes women hitting men seem ridicoulous in many eyes: it touches and denies our own idea, how the world should be organized: hierarchical and (which is the same) patriarcal - even if we don't like it, we are brought up in this thinking. And we have to fight agaionst it. Because I thingk there should be nothing less guiding our relationships than POWER!
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Re:
jadenkun
2000-11-02 18:35
That's something i have ALWAYS wondered... There have been times when I have seen a guy get completely beaten up by a woman simply because he would not lift a hand to her. It just didn't make sense... I stick to this saying: If a woman wants to "fight like a man", then by God, I'll fight her like a man.

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howief
2000-11-03 00:01
The 'problem' with that is if you have a man and a woman in a full-out violent fight and someone or a group of others steps in to break up the fight, who will the on-lookers usually side with and who will be in the wrong? I think somewhere in our training, people keep telling us that "women" are the "weaker sex". Even if this is not true in the individual case, who would be able to pass judgement otherwise. Sometimes this is all in the breeding. Suppose a man has the idea planted in him that "women are the weaker sex" and to "fight" with a woman somehow makes you feel like you are not in a fair fight and others will see you as a repulsive object of masculinism for fighting a woman. It's enough to give a man pause even if the woman is stronger, wiser and more than an equal match. We all want to "impress our peers" and a male fighting a woman just isn't looked upon as being fair and reasonable. It would be nice if people can just discuss issues calmly but that is unrealistic, IMHO. But I agree with your concept.

Howie

"If a man is in a forest and he doesn't make a sound, is he still wrong?"
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Weaker Sex?
jadenkun
2000-11-03 17:46
Weaker sex my ass!!!!! The hardest hitters I know were women!!! LARGE women!And sometimes even the more petite ones delt out MEAN slaps to the face! Again, with that saying, basically, you do the same thing when you fight a man... if she can't fight, use kid gloves, if she can EASILY pummel you, and seems intent on doing it, don't hesitate, for even in the wild, although the lion is feared as the most dangerous predator of the plains, that is no comparison to the angry lioness once she sees you as an enemy! :P
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Male Rights?
threefinger
2000-11-02 09:22
This whole issue is ridiculous. The problems are intuitively obvious. Squeaking about men's rights being effected by women’s rights is like listening to two people argue about who is mistreated more. It’s trite and demeaning. The truth of the matter is that males are physically the dominant sex. We are hunter/gatherers and have evolved to be large and powerful. If the last 50 years of women’s rights have caused ANY perceivable change in the judicial, mental and/or physical treatment of men then, gee… how long will it take to be "square" with the house again. Men have only dominated and done the exact same thing to women for a few million years now.
(Reply to this)

Re: Male Rights?
hercorpse
2000-11-02 09:33
oh there are so many things I find humorous about your post I am not even sure where to start. First off, thank you for the laugh. I just had this very conversation two nights ago some views that surfaced:
the men hunted and gathered because they are not made to function well with multi tasks. So basically think of it as this I am the woman and I know if you try and cook, clean, care for and school our children, and every other thing that is involved in running a household you will make a mess of it all and we will be without shelter, clothing, etc... so go take this rock and throw it at something and bring it home so I can make you dinner because you can atleast get that right.

Don't everyone murder me for that one... but I just could not help myself.
:)
(Reply to this)

Re: Male Rights?
diarmaid
2000-11-02 14:32
:-)
Men are hunters... Thinking about all the game running around our citys one gets an idea why woman are raped, wars exist, atomic boms and genetical engeneering etc. are invented. Might be a slight feeling of uselesness...
'Tell you a secret: art, symphonies and even beeing NICE for a change can bundle a lot of archaic enegy into something really positive for mankind.

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Re: Male Rights?
arguich811
2000-11-02 11:12
There is indeed a lot wrong with this view.

First of all, there in NOTHING intuitively about the claim that MEN 'by nature' are hunters who in ancient days went out -armed with rocks and sticks- to kill and bring fresh meat to feed 'their' families(and as with chimpanzees, the females are the gatherers not the males, they usually just sit and pick their noses -or whatever else they like to pick).

These days it is a strongly contested -if not archaïc- view in (paleo-)anthropology and much new evidence points in an entirely different direction than that of the male-hunter as originator of human civilization.In the revised view WOMEN and not men have played the dominant part in the creation of civilized cultures.

B.T.W.: species may have evolved for millions of years; humans are generally thought to be not much older than 200.000, 250.000 years.

If it had been up to 'male dominance' we would still be eating berries from the bushes.

(Reply to this)

Re: Male Rights?
threefinger
2000-11-02 13:22
That was not the point I was making. I was saying that the PROBLEMS we face in this subject area are intuitively obvious. Surely we can agree that women have had the raw end of the deal. It's obvious. Surely we can agree that this is a male dominated world possibly starting to change to a slightly more equal mix. The sad truth is that we, or at least I, only have explicit knowledge of my life in the US. The problem is much worse in other countries.

By saying WE are hunter/gatherers, I meant humans not male humans. History illustrates what we (males) have done to women. Even if it only started 250,000 years ago, the last 50 years hardly makes up for it. That means for 250,000 years we (males) have been on the top rail and for 0.02% of that time women have started to make up ground. I hardly think males have any type compelling argument, to say that OUR rights are suffering because of increased female rights issues. If you say male-rights have suffered, I’d just have to say “So what?”. Women’s rights are not even close to being where they should be. So I find it embarrassing for members of my own sex to squeak about their “rights” being somehow diminished.

According to a team of Ethiopian, American, and Japanese researchers, two-and-a-half-million-year-old cranial and tooth remains found in Ethiopia belong to a previously unknown hominid that may have been the immediate predecessor of humans. Not strictly human I guess but I bet the male sex of that species was the dominate sex.

(Reply to this)

Re: Male Rights?
diarmaid
2000-11-02 14:17
Don't forget, that most researchers are men. And specially in historycal and archeological research a lot of things are at least questionable..

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*sigh* where are the cool male feminists?
beautifultoxin
2000-11-02 13:23
I live in a town lucky enough to have a women's and men's resource center that wrok TOGETHER, be a volunteer in an a volunteer, communtiy education program around issues of violence agains women where women and men work TOGETHER. Next week I'll host a workshop for 24 men on What Men Can Do About Rape.

There are so, so, so many men out there who 'get it,' who can back off from the safety male priveledge can offer and actually listen to women. So much of this Male Right's stuff is all based on a scarcity-model of socioety; i.e., only one group can have power; there isn't enough power to go around; we all can't be empowered, happy human beings; someone must be oppressed if someone is tkaing back power.

There are more and more men in the world willing to share power with women, willing to break out of out-moded sexist roles that, though they give men a great deal of power OVER women, have nothing do to do with sharing power WITH women. Something you don't hear from these backlash orgs.

As for the transgendered girl in Brockton High School (I grew up 2 towns over), how is this male bashing? How? The Trans movement is among youth in Massachusetts is get stronger every day, and it's based on a new way of looking at gender and power: moving beyond the men's movement over there, the women's movement over here, and trying meet int he middle. Our men's and women's centers are opening up more publiclly to transgendered folks and thier allies-- trying to bring more people in to challenge binary gender roles that don't adequately describe many people. If anything, the judge's descions to allow the Trans-gyrl the right to wear what she wishes is all the more evidence of how this backlash movement is all about squandering power away from women, preserving power just for the RIGHT men. Fuck it. Forget it. Blah.

Thanks, Ana, for providing a forum for this-- :)
(Reply to this)

Re: *sigh* where are the cool male feminists?
beautifultoxin
2000-11-02 13:30
Just wanted to add that I didn't think the Judge was exmplifying male right's BS-- but that this wa sused as an example by this pro-men's rights dude is just proof that men's right's is all about dividing people, not bring them together.
(Reply to this)

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did you women ever think that this is due to confusion
donthelegend
2000-11-02 18:31
Did any of your stop to think a lot of men that are feeling abused by the swing of power do so not because the want to be malicious but that we are left felling VERY confused now a days. Until what the last 30 years or so men and women have atleast had a idea what was expected of them and what there boundrys where. but you now have a geriration of men that grew up not knowing our roles in socity or what we did wrong that we are now being persicuted. We are now told that what ever a women does is ok. but you must still live bye the old rules. but what ever you do dont use the old rules because that makes you a bad person. So what the hell are we suposed to do. for example we are not suposed to walk up to a woman and introduce ourselfs and try to start conversation. yet starting the relationship to many women is still the guys job.. so the answer is just humilate ourself and hope for pity???? you tell me
(Reply to this)

Re: did you women ever think that this is due to confusion
gelasia
2000-11-03 00:59
I recall when I was single, I was leary of guys approaching me. I was also leary of women too. Possibly just people in general.

I think just letting others be is my philosophy in life. 'I do my thing, you do yours, and if ever we shall meet, it's beautiful.' Is some old saying. I'm used to meeting now.

Since I've been in a committed relationship for quite a while now, I have been less leary of others approaching me.

So this makes me think, maybe it wasn't that I didn't trust them, it was that I didn't trust myself.

hmmm, something to ponder....

On a different note:
It's a unique situation every time, but your attitude makes all the difference. And so does theirs. So if you're cool, and they aren't, don't take it personally, and move on. Maybe their cat died that day. Maybe you remind them of someone. Maybe the dentist pulled the wrong tooth, and they weren't smiling because they swelled up so bad. So many things influence each situation. Just keep trying and be your cool self. Or just stop looking, and focus on something else in your life. I did this, and he found me! woo hoo! Give it a go.

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Friday, November 3rd, 2000

Time Event
8:41p www.rawa.org
(1 Comment | Comment on this)
8:50p i have so much 2 tell u. i did so much today! lots of walking around. i got up at 9am and went nonstop. so now i am too tired to type in here or even move, which makes me sad 'cause i really wanted to go to the last "future perfect" tonight :(
but i am just soooo tired. i think i will roll myself into bed soon

oh, and i received my mug and mouse pad from my cafepress store today
( www.cafepress.com/voog )

and it is of VERY high quality! i am very impressed!!!

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Saturday, November 4th, 2000

Time Event
6:49p sorry i have not been making anagrams and have been thoughly ignoring the cam! just one of those things, y'know?

i have been soaking in life and information all over..and of course that whole 'men's rights" thing ceryainly did stir up A LOT of things to think about for a long time.

just thinkin thinkin thinkin and playin playin playin :)

trying to get the last bit of joy from the outdoors before it starts to snow...which should be any day now :/

i got my mug and mousepad from my cafepress store and it is GREAT quality! i am impressed!

funny, too, 'cause i got the mousepad that i had originally made..and then after i ordered it..i changed the design. it's a pretty pic, very light in colour, and i changed it later to the one that is there now..because that one is black and better for not showing dirt.

i will have to make many more cafe press stores now, now that i know they are of such great quality.

how do they do it? it's amazing!

i was in a cathedral today and the organist was playing the most majestic dissonant avant garde music!
and no one was there!
i laid down in a pew and almost fell asleep!
it was SO wonderful and special...a memory that will be with me to the end of my life ( and hopefully beyond)

i think i shall crawl into bed soon

oh! and get this! my medication that i take now comes to $950!!!!!!! insane.

i could only afford to get 1/2 of it. when i get paid from anacam money i can get the rest in a few days.

hopefully i can get on jason's insurance as a domestic partner! *crosses fingers*

i mean, 950!!! that's more than i pay in rent!!!

---
A ?
nettie
2000-11-04 21:58
Ana, I was just looking at you lying in bed and you look so peaceful and really beautiful. I hope you are not offended by this but are you "expecting"? Or are the angles playing games w/my eyes? You would be the most beautiful angelic pregnant woman. It's none of my business or anyone elses but I couldnt help but be calmed and jolted all at once by the instant perception of it all. So beautiful.
(Reply to this)

Re: A ?
tari
2000-11-05 07:18
that is what I thought when I peeked in on her last night. She did look pregnant and looked so beautiful at that moment.
(Reply to this)

Re: A ?
byron
2000-11-05 12:46
I thought maybe it was just me that thought that. I just didn't want to say it. There is no worse feeling that asking a woman when she's expecting, and she snarls, "I'm not pregnant."

So Ana....are we all jerks here? I'd rather be the jerk in a crowd asking rather than the singlar jerk standing there.
(Reply to this)

A baby?
louann
2000-11-04 22:41
yes... you do look rather pregnant... its gonna be a beautiful baby!
(Reply to this)

Welcome Being
bambulu
2000-11-04 23:12
Really happy..

Welcome,,

bambulu
(Reply to this)

I wasn't going to ask
gelasia
2000-11-04 23:48
But I did wonder too if you were growing a babe. I would be so happy for you! I got two (girl-age 5 years and one boy 6 months), and life is fun with them in a wholesome way, I who used to club hop! lol!

But if you're not, don't be offended, light can play tricks especially cameras involved. :)
(Reply to this)

(no subject)
marlathomas
2000-11-05 00:50
Wow yah, .. Ok i'm being a sleuth but ..
she's thinking about buying a condo, something 'permanent' , and remember the other day she was asking about fetuses in regard to gender and stuff ? Makes sense
What a creative little offspring this would be , and to witness it all via cam ! Awesome.
(Reply to this)

Re:
byron
2000-11-05 12:49
I remember when she posted that. And that coupled with last nights cam pics got me wondering. SO was it camera tricks or are we right?!?!?

My god can you imagine the FedEx Baby shower we'd throw for her. =)

---

stay hungry

Posted by freekee on October 23, 2000 at 11:46:10:

Usually when people refer to artists being hungry, they don't mean in the literal/food sense. So sometimes we get confused. What we really mean when we say an artist is hungry is that an artist is not yet established, and is still working hard to try to get some acceptance, and still has that edginess. S/he hasn't become polished yet. In that sense hunger is a good thing. It is a motivator.

You can see this aspect in popular music. I can think of many artists that put out a great first record, and then they hit the big time and their next record stinks. There are other factors involved of course, but when a artists get too comfortable, they lose much of their motivation. Some get self indulgent. Some get soft. Some lose it forever, for some it is only a momentary lapse.

Bruce Springsteen
Pearl Jam
U2
Tori Amos

So Ana, if you ever do lose your motivation because of a cushy lifestyle (and I think your creativity is endless) you'd be in good company. And I don't think a nice home could do it anyway. When an artist hits the big time, and makes a lot of money, he often thinks he has made it; that he has achieved his goal. I can't imagine you'd ever think a nice home is your goal.

---
Re: stay hungry

Posted by ANA on October 23, 2000 at 12:16:58:

In Reply to: stay hungry posted by freekee on October 23, 2000 at 11:46:10:

i think that the reason that the first record from an artist that gets signed to a major label is good..and then the second one is usually of poorer quality is because that artist had their whole LIFE 2 write that first album for the major label.
and then they are FORCED by the major label 2 make a second album VERY VERY quickly.

that is what happened to me...anavoog.com could have been infinitely cooler if i would have had the time and resources to make it cooler. but they only give u so much money and so much time...it's really scary. it's awful.

i think that the songs on that record are really string..but the execution of them are rather weak , except for a few, because i was in this expensive studio and the clock was ticking. i'd have to settle for sounds that were "good enough" because i didn't have the time 2 really explore it.

and then when it got mixed, we HAD 2 mix one song a day, and there was no room for mistakes. and there were many mistakes because our mixer was a psychotic alcoholic and would break down after 4 hours of mixing and start drinking and then throw little temper tantrums about shit.

it was hell.

but i was not given the time nor the luxury of being able to meet the person who would mix my record beforehand. nor could we tell that label that this guy was AWFUL...they would not give us any money to start over again.

so when we got home, we had 2 resort to putting on about 3 rough mixes we had done...because those were BETTER than what the mixer had done.

there is so much shit and politics that happen with major labels and the artists that the public just doesn't get 2 see. and then when the record comes out it's all the artist's fault.

and another thing...about my last record...i had a song called "company's here" that was really cool and was supposed to be on that record but it was a very complex song and it needed a lot of time 2 finish it...well, time was running out so i had 2 pull that song and quickly write another 2 replace it..because u HAVE 2 have at least 10 songs on a record. so i went hoem and in one day wrote "hollywood" and in one day recorded it!

so REALLY that song on my record is no more than an expensive demo of what it could be.

well, the record label decided ( i didn't get 2 decide ) that THAT would be the single...but since it was obviously missing "something" ( like the time to fully record it how it should have been )...they took it to a bunch of remixers ( i didn't get to pick who ) who remixed it in a really gross fashion and then the label picked which remix they liked best ( i didn't get to pick ) and they put that out as my single!

and then the song has NOTHG+ING to do with my and doesn't reflect me at all or how that song was supposed to sound.

but no one knows this...and people think it's ME who did that. and it's so embarrassing to me...altho a lot of people seemed to have liked it anyway..

eek.
---
Posted by ANA on October 24, 2000 at 11:57:51:

my polaroid project:

got o this page to see some of the polaroids i've taken so far:

www.anacam.com/polaroids.html

at the bottom of that page are instructions about how u can become part of this project and receive polaroids from me :)

my polaroid project
---
Posted by ANA on October 25, 2000 at 23:34:52:

ok, i'm trying out the cafepress thing :)
i ordered 2 for myself :)

go here:

www.cafepress.com.voog

i'll get t shirts up in there, too :)

---
Posted by ANA on October 27, 2000 at 16:46:52:

click the link :)

http://www.thedent.com/jpgs/y2000/pregtorib.jpg
----
Posted by ANA on October 31, 2000 at 14:04:17:

ohmigod! i slept until 2:30pm! and it's 70 degrees outside! aaaa! must try 2 get ready super fast 2 go 4 a walk now that it gets dark at 5!

and happy halloween! i have nothing special planned. i didn't even carve a pumpkin, and i used 2 be so into halloween.

so what are your plans? gonna go to any parties or anything? and if so, what will be your costume? :)

---
Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-wd013.proxy.aol.com (205.188.193.153) on October 31, 2000 at 20:37:51:

If you think that women actually have it worse than men do in this day and age, think again. I am a male rights activist and I want to get the word out that there is a backlash to pop-feminism just around the corner, so for all of you feminists, you better read up on our topics and prepare! Here are some very informative web-addresses to some sites that will enlighten you and show you what's on the minds of many men these days. Take a good look! Thanks.

http://law.about.com/newsissues/law/library/weekly/aa101600a.htm

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2000/10/19/mens_choice/index.html

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww2000104.shtml

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/0009/bk.finn.html

http://www.spintechmag.com/0008/hr0800.htm

http://www.backlash.com/book/rape2.html

http://detnews.com/1997/metro/9704/20/04200070.htm

http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/rhinehart1/

http://www.nocirc.org/legal/smith.html

http://www.backlash.com/book/oppress1.html

http://www.backlash.com/book/blash.html

http://www.egroups.com/message/backlash/19223

http://www.backlash.com/content/gender/votemale/raj.html

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/05/sommers.htm

http://www.ncfm.org/edtoral.htm

http://www.backlash.com/content/gender/votemale/strag01.html

http://www.backlash.com/book/sexism.html

http://www.mens-rights.org/

http://www.mens-rights.org/hayward.htm

http://www.menmedia.org/

http://www.mensactivism.org/

http://www.rulymob.com/

---
Posted by Nova - cj676240-a.alex1.va.home.com (24.6.109.246) on November 01, 2000 at 14:10:31:

In Reply to: Men's Rights posted by Justin Zellers on October 31, 2000 at 20:37:51:

One thing that strikes me as interesting in this whole issue is the apples/oranges comparisons that are being made...becaseu women do not get convicted of murder as often they are not considered as "violent",but is that the only indicator that we are goign to use to judge violent behavior? Yelling, belittling, breaking things, threats, and psycological manipulation are all more typical in the arsenal of women, whose small bodies and different bio-chemical makeups and imperitives result in a different MANIFESTATON of violence.
Also interesting to me is that everyone seems to be using spousal abuse as the yardstick here in determining who has the edge on violence. But what of child abuse? I know so many people who have been moderately to seriously abused either physically or mentally by their mothers, often with the caveat that their mothers were "goign through a hard time hormonally", or "depressed" or "unhappy" or just plain "psycho". THis violence inevitably was also perpetrated against the man in the family as well, if he was present, in front of the children, creating an insecure atmosphere of dread and embarrassment in the home. So, the questions I feel this raises are: 1. are women "less violent" than men,or do they just show it in different ways, and 2.what is the basis for accusation and accountability-seeking against men but sympathy towards women when someone loses their self-control?

---
Posted by rdsc - host62-7-113-212.btinternet.com (62.7.113.212) on November 01, 2000 at 12:34:01:

In Reply to: Men's Rights posted by Justin Zellers on October 31, 2000 at 20:37:51:

Male activism is not a radical movement. It's reactionary to it's *core*. You can moan as much as you want about the way men are socially conditioned now, but unless you get A SENSE OF HISTORY that is all you will ever be able to do: (moan).

No intelligent person can honestly review the last 2000 years of cultural conditioning without concluding that, across all cultures, for centuries, women have got the shitty end of the stick.

In the west, for most of the last 2 millenia, it was *explicitly* argued that women did not possess souls. Until about 150 years ago women in Britain (and I'd guess the US) were *legally* considered to be chattel property (right up there with livestock and slaves), when MY MOTHER married she had to leave her job in the Civil Service because there was a "marriage bar" (this was in the 50's) and "wifey" didn't belong in the workplace. The qualified right to the legal authority over their own bodies (abortion) was won less than 40 years ago.

You take a *pop* at Pop-feminism cos it's an easy target. When I meet a male rights activist who is capable of dealing with radical feminism... I'll eat my pants: cos the simple fact is that most of the most brilliant activists, writers and philosophers of the 20th century, were women.

The Pankhursts, Rebecca West, Emma Goldman, Adrienne Rich, Susan Griffin, Gena Corea, Alice Walker, Hannah Arendt, Robin Morgan, Andrea Dworkin, Monica Sjoo, Germaine Greer, Dale Spender, Marija Gimbutas etc etc.

If you're not engaging with there "ideas", then you're not showing respect. (IMHO)

--
Posted by dadnerd - (207.153.97.229) on November 01, 2000 at 15:08:47:

In Reply to: zero sympathy posted by rdsc on November 01, 2000 at 12:34:01:

In many respects women are way superior to men, if only they knew it. And its coming fast. We males are blunt instruments compared to them crafty females.
This male habit of thinking in linear fashion duh, that aint the way the real world works. Give me right brain or give me death!

Truth be known we need both halves working in harmony, that is, Left and Right brain. Love watching this play out, wish I could live to be two hundred.

---
Posted by miles - adsl-63-201-210-9.dsl.lsan03.pacbell.net (63.201.210.9) on November 01, 2000 at 12:19:08:

In Reply to: Men's Rights posted by Justin Zellers on October 31, 2000 at 20:37:51:

I checked a few of the "men's rights" links. Most of the articles are gibberish
with a few irrelevant facts thrown in to make it sound legit. Not that I think all
feminist writing makes sense. But, the risk of rape and domestic abuse for
women is epidemic compared to the risk for men. In other words, Justin, do
the math.

Backlash against feminism is a credible threat. However, direct threats to
women are common and deserve the most concern.

---
Posted by Dibz - user-216-81.jakinternet.co.uk (212.187.216.81) on November 01, 2000 at 11:39:45:

In Reply to: Men's Rights posted by Justin Zellers on October 31, 2000 at 20:37:51:

Men probably are more aggressive than women - but don't blame us, it genetic.

I think the main issues for men nowadays is not a so much a problem with any kind of prejudice, its more about the radical redefinition of the male gender role. Women no longer need the protection of a "bread winner" and many aspects of masculinity are now frowned upon.

Women are becoming far more successful in society and are better suited to social existence. Men's traditional roles have been usurped by th new woman. What are men to do now?

---
Posted by whorlpool - (207.31.234.39) on October 31, 2000 at 20:43:08:

In Reply to: Men's Rights posted by Justin Zellers on October 31, 2000 at 20:37:51:

bullshit

---
Posted by dankitti - PPPa34-ResalePrinceton1-4R7300.saturn.bbn.com (4.48.153.127) on November 01, 2000 at 05:13:05:

In Reply to: Re: Men's Rights posted by whorlpool on October 31, 2000 at 20:43:08:

well, isn't THAT special.

did you actually READ any of it, or is that just the typical feminist knee-jerk response that men can't possibly have any issues? i'm going to be actually reeading some of those, and THEN i'll decide.

---
Posted by whorlpool - (207.31.234.39) on November 01, 2000 at 06:50:59:

In Reply to: Re: Men's Rights posted by dankitti on November 01, 2000 at 05:13:05:

And I am a feminist.

And yes, it was kneejerk.

And yes, I read some of it.

---
Posted by dankitti - PPPa34-ResalePrinceton1-4R7300.saturn.bbn.com (4.48.153.127) on November 01, 2000 at 17:02:44:

In Reply to: i am a man posted by whorlpool on November 01, 2000 at 06:50:59:

weoll, i AM glad you read some of it. i'm still trying to sort through some of it, but some of it DOES make sense, and some of it DOES seem a little exxagerrated. anyway i have known it is possible for a man to be a feminist.

anyway, it's nice to keep the lines of dialog open about this, either way.

er, my previous post may have seemed a little snippy, especially posted after about 5 hrs sleep. sorry if it did. :)

---
Posted by whorlpool - (207.31.234.39) on November 01, 2000 at 22:26:47:

In Reply to: that cleared that up. :) posted by dankitti on November 01, 2000 at 17:02:44:

no problem.

I'm usually the one who attacks people who say things like i did, so i totally understand your reaction.

I'm just not really a big fan of backlashes, that's all. They come in all forms, and they are often couched in logic. Maybe someday we'll be ready for a men's movement, but as of today, women just aren't given equal rights yet. Some scattered men are discriminated against, but EVERY single woman on the face of the planet is discriminated against.

---
Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-to012.proxy.aol.com (152.163.204.47) on November 02, 2000 at 09:22:57:

In Reply to: Re: that cleared that up. :) posted by whorlpool on November 01, 2000 at 22:26:47:

I totally disagree. Totally.

---
Posted by whorlpool - (207.31.234.39) on November 02, 2000 at 10:04:52:

In Reply to: Re: that cleared that up. :) posted by Justin Zellers on November 02, 2000 at 09:22:57:

That every woman is discriminated against??

That most men are not??

You disagree TOTALLY with these statements?

No offense, but you seem to be living in a dreamworld. I've never met a woman who hasn't been discriminated against. And I've met very very very very very few men who have been.

With all due respect, my perspective on these things is not simplistic. In one way or another I've been involved in issues of gender equity for over ten years. I'm sorry if I just don't see you as able to say the same.

----

Posted by ANA on November 01, 2000 at 10:08:28:

In Reply to: Men's Rights posted by Justin Zellers on October 31, 2000 at 20:37:51:

i agree with some of it. like men should be able to dress like women if they want 2 , since girls can dress like men.
and there are a few other points i agree with...but i read most of the stuff in your links late at night while i was very tired...so o i will have 2 go back 2 those links and reread to make my points.

but there are some points that are just incredibly sexist and totally insulting to women if not downright vile.

like this one at:
http://www.backlash.com/book/aggress.html

that it trying 2 suggest that women are just as violent as men. which is a very ignorant thing to say since 90% of the people in jail for murder in 1998 were male. that's one statistic and there are much more.

in fact, one of the biggest causes of death among women is domestic violnce.

i downloaded the book and printed it out and i will read that, too.

then i will see if i have energy left to really delve into a conversation about this...since most of it is just so obviously whiny and silly.

----

Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-wd074.proxy.aol.com (205.188.193.184) on November 01, 2000 at 10:37:47:

In Reply to: Re: Men's Rights posted by ANA on November 01, 2000 at 10:08:28:

Most of it is not whiny and silly and I am offended that you would say that. What do you think many feminists do? And as far as your statistic of men in jail, that is another sexist thing about our country. We cannot seem to ever blame, arrest, jail, and put women to death who commit the same exact crimes. Those stats about prison are very misleading. And as far as women not being as violent as men, 93% of all domestic disputes begin with a woman assaulting the man and most of the time he still doesn't even strike back. Please try to open your mind a bit to reality. I have lots of respect for you, Ana, but I think you need to try to put yourself in a man's shoes while reading this information and push your feminist training and thoughts aside a bit. Thanks for acknowledging my post, reading the sites, and printing out that book. I do appreciate that more than you could imagine. Have a nice day!

---
Posted by ANA on November 01, 2000 at 10:46:22:

In Reply to: Re: Men's Rights posted by Justin Zellers on November 01, 2000 at 10:37:47:

your thought that women are just as violent as men is really severely offbase.

where did u get this idea that "93% of all domestic disputes begin with a woman assaulting the man and most of the time he still doesn't even strike back. "?????????? i would like to know the studies on that. do u have proof to back up that statement? if u do, i'd love to see it.

i have not had any feminist "training"

i have put myself into men's shoes for most of my 34 years of this life trying desparately understand why so many men are the way they are.

i should have a triple phd in the study of men by now :)

if i may ask u a personal question...
have u been in a bunch of physically or emotionally violent relationships with women?
what is your mother like?
what is your background and life experience thus far?
i am trying 2 understand why u have come to the conclusions that u have.

oh, and i am totally pro abortion, and the man has a right to say, think or feel whatever he wants to about that, but ultimately it is her body and her choice what she decides to do with her body. period.
and don't even argue that point with me because u will not change my belief in that. nor will i debate with u on it.

---

Posted by whorlpool - (207.31.234.39) on November 01, 2000 at 16:26:30:

In Reply to: Re: Men's Rights posted by Justin Zellers on November 01, 2000 at 13:39:21:

Please speak without so many overgeneralizations. I really hope that men and women are infinitely more complex than you are making them out to be. I've been living very happily with a woman for 13 years (today in fact is our anniversary), and she is the least violent person in the world.

She has also been the victim of sexism, over and over again. In contrast, I have NEVER been the victim of reverse sexism. I have NEVER had to worry about being raped. I have NEVER had to worry about being beaten or abused or ridiculed or humiliated or treated like a child by any woman I've ever met. I have never walked down the street in shame because everyone was glaring at my body. I have never worried that I wouldn't get a job because i am male. In fact, I have NEVER been discriminated against in any way whatsoever due to my gender.

Your argument is just too overbroad to have any relevance whatsoever. You mention chivalry but fail to understand that chivalry is anathema to most feminists. It perpetuates exactly what most feminists are trying to overcome, that is, the image of a weak, dependent woman who needs to be taken care of. Somewhere you mention that women don't have to sign up to be drafted, as men are. That, too, is a point of MAJOR contention for feminists, who want very much that women and men be treated entirely equally. It certainly is ridiculous that women aren't drafted, as are men, but this is a FEMINIST point of view. Because of feminists (not because of the men's movement, that's for damned sure), women now serve in the armed forces.

By the way, what exactly is your purpose for bringing all this to our attention? To put women down, perhaps? To spit your bitterness back in their faces? What horrible things have women done to you that make you so adamant about proving to us that men have been shit on? I just don't get it. Are you blind?? You say you love Ana. Well, I'm curious...have you read any of her journal? Are you aware of the crap she's had to put up with by some of the men in her past. You come here and use her website as a forum to spread (what I frankly consider to be) hatred. And when people have the totally predictable response of telling you they don't give the men's right movement much respect, you get upset.

Well, you know what. No one here is disputing that men sometimes have it bad. But a quarter second of thought will be enough to show any thinking person alive that women have been getting the shaft from men for thousands of years and that though there has been some progress in some parts of the world, most women, including many many women in the U.S., still live as second-class citizens. Women simply do not receive truly equal rights anywhere at all in the entire world. In most of the world, men can rape, beat, and even kill them with impunity.

I'm sorry, but your message is one of hatred. You may not be full of hatred; you may be the nicest guy in the world. You may honestly have the best intentions in the world. You and I might agree on lots of things should we ever have a real conversation.

But the message you are promoting is one of hatred.

----
Posted by ANA on November 01, 2000 at 22:03:51:

In Reply to: oh god posted by whorlpool on November 01, 2000 at 16:26:30:

right on!
and here si a great post that was made over in ana2:

"I guess if you look at the issue from a global perspective, American men don’t have certain rights allowed to men in other countries. The don’t have the right to kill their wives, sisters, mothers, and female cousins if they have done something to dishonor the family - like getting raped. (afghanistan, pakistan). They don’t have the right to set their wives on fire if they not longer want to be married or if her dowery is insufficient (india - this practice is technically illegal but virtually never prosecuted). American men don’t have the right to disfigure a female who rejects him so she is no longer desirable to other men (india). It is not legal for American men to rape (ie. ‘sexually initiate’) their teenage female relatives (mexico, parts of central and south america). Nor is it legal for the male head of the family/community to force women to mutilate the genitals of their daughters and granddaughters (somalia, ethiopia, and other parts of africa).
And on a related note, it is not acceptable in America to routinely and systematically abandon or murder infant females (china, india, and assorted third world countries).
Of course, it’s also illegal for American women to commit any of these crimes against men.

---
Posted by whorlpool - (207.31.234.39) on November 01, 2000 at 22:06:21:

In Reply to: Re: oh god posted by Justin Zellers on November 01, 2000 at 17:38:13:

I'm an ardent feminist, and I see that as one of the most positive aspects of my identity. I hear what you're saying, but, respectfully, I would suggest you have a lot more of the world to see and think about. Women are simply not treated as equals anywhere.

I think you may be paying too much attention to the fringes of feminism rather than the heart of it, the heart which only stands for one thing: gender equality. What you will learn is that words are political creatures. Humanism is not the same as feminism. Humanism is a nice thing, but it ignores the very real problems that women still face.

I obviously don't know what specific problems of discrimination you have faced, but I imagine that the problems are not so much gender issues as broader-based problems arising from societal ills that extend well beyond any sort of battle between the sexes. If I have experienced any discrimination at all, it's in this: I felt a strong compulsion to conform to a "masculine" stereotype that I don't feel a part of. I'm not homosexual, but I've felt strong homophobia directed at me, perhaps because I'm not a typical male. I've also felt strong prejudice against me because I am enthusiastic about things and I am intelligent; these are not typical male traits, so I have been attacked for them.

If these are some of the things for which you yourself have felt discriminated against, and if these are part of the things you use in your argument for male rights, than it's not as if I disagree with you, but I believe, quite strongly, that in attacking feminists you are fighting the wrong people. The societal ills go deeper, and in promoting the feminist agenda (not the fringe one but the mainstream one) you would most likely promote your own.

I think you would be pleasantly surprised by the openminded nature of most of the women in this world who call themselves feminists. The extremists are few and far between. We owe those extremists a debt of gratitude, for without them women would be even worse off than they are today. But the extremists do not speak for all of us feminists.

My feminism, like that of many many others, is easily defined: we want equality between the sexes, without hatred, without backlash, without blame.

---
Posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 10:22:01:

In Reply to: i'm 33 posted by whorlpool on November 01, 2000 at 22:06:21:

THANK U SO MUCH for being able to articulate that!! aaa yes! that is so much what i wanted to say but did not articulate! i am saving your post!!

---
Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-to012.proxy.aol.com (152.163.204.47) on November 02, 2000 at 09:31:28:

In Reply to: i'm 33 posted by whorlpool on November 01, 2000 at 22:06:21:

Okay, three things...

1. "Humanism is a nice thing, but it ignores the very real problems that women still face." How's that? Why can't we fight for equality between the sexes without excluding and ignoring one?
2. "I am enthusiastic about things and I am intelligent; these are not typical male traits." You're trying to tell me that men are typically not intelligent? I am at a loss for words on that one...
3. "In attacking feminists you are fighting the wrong people." I am NOT attacking feminists in any way, shape or form. I am just trying to get everybody to open their minds to the whole picture, which includes men's rights. And I am not for backlashes either, but this is just a possibility if we continue to ignore the harm that is being done to males in today's society.

---
Posted by whorlpool - (207.31.234.39) on November 02, 2000 at 09:53:57:

In Reply to: Re: i'm 33 posted by Justin Zellers on November 02, 2000 at 09:31:28:

1. Humanism vs. feminism: i mean that the very word itself is politicized. The word feminism has more political power to help women; it's not neutral, and women still have a long way to go. The word humanism dilutes the message, so to speak. I wasn't really talking about the philosophies, I was talking about the words. And words actually do make a difference.

For what it's worth, I'm very much of a humanist, but I'm also very much of a feminist.

2. Of course men can be intelligent. But I found, in my own experience, that I was not "allowed" to be intelligent, as a man (well, as a young man; i'm talking grade school here). Intelligence was not a quality that other men valued, so I had to hide it or I was automatically ostracized.

I have to say that this may be changed a little now; your experience in this regard may be different than mine was. Now that computers are so important, intelligence (geekiness, even) are much more highly valued. For example, when I was in high school, I could not show an interest in computers without having to explain myself to my friends.

3. You may not be attacking feminists, but I believe (though I don't have it in front of me at the moment) that your original post did use the term "pop-feminists" in a way that we could assume was denigrating.

Anyway, it's become obvious to me that you are NOT just some jerk who wants shove women back in their place. HOWEVER, I would suggest to you that some of the people posting the things you're pointing us to ARE those jerks.

My original point stands: that women simply are not yet treated equally anywhere in the world. If some men are suffering, and if there is some unfairness in treatment of men, then that IS a bad thing. I will agree with you there. BUT the fact remains: EVERY SINGLE WOMAN IN THE ENTIRE WORLD EXPERIENCES DISCRIMINATION, ON MULTIPLE FRONTS, THROUGHOUT HER LIFE.

We still have a long long way to go. From my perspective, men's rights, to the small extent that they are truly an issue, will be improved by working for women's rights.

---
Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-wc082.proxy.aol.com (205.188.193.57) on November 02, 2000 at 11:13:43:

In Reply to: oh ok, wait...here... posted by whorlpool on November 02, 2000 at 09:53:57:

Thanks for clarifying. I agree with what you say. Also, thanks for realizing that I am not just one of those jerks. I would just like to see equality for all. And it is MY perspective that women have reached equal rights and then some, and men are being oppressed. But I know that you and most others do not agree with me and I respect that. Just remember, I am not in any way against women or trying to push women back, I just wanted to bring up a point that I feel is overlooked. Peace and Love.

---
Posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 11:45:44:

In Reply to: Re: oh ok, wait...here... posted by Justin Zellers on November 02, 2000 at 11:13:43:

the fact that u are overlooking is that women have NOT achieved equality "and then some"

and that is NOT an opinion, that is a fact.

as i told u in my livejournal/analog (ana.livejournal.com):

u seem to not be able to recognize fact from opinion.

and the fact that u are not able to see the reality that women are intensely oppressed all over the world every day IS "helping to push women back"

we NEED more MEN to speak up on this issue to give it more "validity" in the eyes of "the world"
( sorry that that is a sad fact that women aren't taken very seriously about this issue...because if we speak up about it we get immediately invalilidated and thrwon into the "man hater" corner or the "hysterical corner" ( which hyster means WOMB..so think about THAT one!).

u NEED to SEE this
women NEED u to see this

i woul dnot even debate about this when i was in my 20's because all my friends were male and if i brough that subject up...i knew they would not be friends with me anymore.

i would not even write about it in my music much because i didn't want my music to end up in the "women's music section"...a place MOST men do not go

but now that i'm 34 and i see that life is too short to "not make any waves"
and i refuse to have anyone label me and stick me in a box and shut me away and invalidate what i say

i'm not going away
i'm going to fight for this the rest of my life
because it IS my LIFE
my LIFE don't u see?
not just QUALITY of life..but the fear of DEATH!

i cannot travel alone in most of the world for fear of death or fear of being kidnapped and thrwon into white slavery.

i cannot go OUTSIDE at NIGHT!!
do u have ANY comprehension of what that is like to be quarantined?

i HAVE to stay INDOORS for my safety!!!

can u GRASP that?

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Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-wn051.proxy.aol.com (205.188.197.171) on November 02, 2000 at 13:53:48:

In Reply to: Re: oh ok, wait...here... posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 11:45:44:

WHERE DO YOU LIVE????????

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Posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 20:51:03:

In Reply to: Re: oh ok, wait...here... posted by Justin Zellers on November 02, 2000 at 13:53:48:

on EARTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

---

George W Bush
Party: Republican

Issue Positions/Platform:

Abortion: Bush is against abortion except in cases of rape, incest, and to protect the life of the mother. He also takes the position that "instead of arguing over Roe v. Wade, what we ought to do is promote policies that reduce abortions." As governor, Bush signed a Texas Law requiring parental notification for underage abortions.

Civil Rights: Bush supports diversity but opposes policies amounting to racial quotas. Bush oppposes gay-discrimination laws. He also opposes passage of legislation allowing gays in the Boy Scouts.
-----
Posted by ANA on November 01, 2000 at 11:46:54:

In Reply to: bush's issues/platforn ( he is against abortion) posted by ANA on November 01, 2000 at 11:38:18:

here is what bush is for:

"Bush oppposes gay-discrimination laws. He also opposes passage of legislation allowing gays in the Boy Scouts"

isn't he contradicting himself here?
he is for gay rights, yet will not let them into the boy scouts?

am i understanding that correctly?

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Posted by freekee - milw2t1rex.execpc.net (169.207.180.242) on November 01, 2000 at 12:29:39:

In Reply to: about gay rights posted by ANA on November 01, 2000 at 11:46:54:

I think his general stance is anti-legislation. No discrimination laws. No forcing a group to do something it doesn't want to. A "hands off" policy.

Bush generally doesn't seem to care very much about many of these issues. He doesn't seem to be very interested in overturning Roe vs. Wade. He kind of shrugs his shoulders. I think that demonstrates his anti-legislation stance.

As far as saying that "instead of arguing over Roe v. Wade, what we ought to do is promote policies that reduce abortions," I think that whether you're pro choice or anti abortion, that is a commendible attitude. (I don't think ANYONE is really PRO ABORTION. Not having to have one is always the better situation.) The only difference is how one tries to reach that goal.

The parental notification with regards to abortion doesn't really show his true stance on abortion, because many people think that parental responsibility for their children is a bigger issue that whether abortion is right or wrong.

So I'm not worried about Bush's postion on abortion. I am worried about his court justice appointees' positions, and the positions of the republican legislature that will feel empowered by a republican president.

---
Posted by whorlpool - (207.31.234.39) on November 01, 2000 at 12:47:28:

In Reply to: Re: about gay rights and abortion posted by freekee on November 01, 2000 at 12:29:39:

I don't. I want a president who cares deeply.

---
Posted by goofygrape - 206-132-48-38.nas-1.SCF.primenet.com (206.132.48.38) on November 01, 2000 at 12:24:43:

In Reply to: about gay rights posted by ANA on November 01, 2000 at 11:46:54:

ana,

I think what GW is saying is he’s against special rights for any group of people. That is
what he said in the debate. In other words everybody should be covered equally by one set
of rights.
As for the Boy Scouts issue he’s saying the Boy Scouts should be able to decide what they
think is right for their organization.
Just as an organization like NOW should be able to decide who they want to represent and
lead their members.

Here’s my opinion.

We should all have the exact same rights no matter your race, sex, age or sexual
preference.

This is related to the men’s rights posting below.
You can see what happens when you start making special rights for different groups.

Why the heck can’t all humans live equally under one set of laws and rights and quit giving
special preferences for race, sex or sexual preferences?

I’m going to write a more detailed posting about this subject if I find time later this week.

That is why I’m against affirmative action the way it is written today. You can’t fight
racism with more racism.

Another reason why I don’t support hate crime laws. Heck ALL violent crimes are out of
hatred and the idea that a person can be punished or prosecuted more severely for the
same crime just because of the reason they committed the crime is scary to me. You have
the hints of thought police going on there and you can’t legislate how people think.
We only need one set of federal law for crimes. People are people and murder is murder.
The guilty should be prosecuted and held to the same punishment of the law no matter
what.

Which brings me to my major point in this posting.
When you start legislating a different set of laws and different sets of rights for separate
groups of people, this does more to separate America than it does to bring the people
together.

goofy

---
Posted by ANA on November 01, 2000 at 14:40:01:

In Reply to: Re: about gay rights posted by goofygrape on November 01, 2000 at 12:24:43:

are u saying that a gay boy who would be let into the boy scouts would be a special right for that boy?

special right?
he's a boy dammit!
let him join the boyscouts!

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Posted by goofygrape - tnt1-1-232.phoenix.goodnet.com (209.54.248.232) on November 01, 2000 at 15:03:29:

In Reply to: Re: about gay rights posted by ANA on November 01, 2000 at 14:40:01:

first about the boy scout thingy.
I’m just informing you the stance of the boy scouts.
I don’t think the rights and laws I was referring to would effect a private club such as that.
I’m not a lawyer (thank god) but I guess the courts will decide, or they may have already
decided.

story

My friend and I were leaving band practice a few years ago in a downtown area. We saw a
small tavern on a corner and decided to stop for a beer.
Once inside we sat right at the bar and it didn’t take us long to notice that it was all guys,
a gay bar.
We didn’t really care, we just wanted a beer, we were hot & thirsty.
It took the bartender about 5 mins to get to us and when he did, he leaned over and told
us that it was obvious we were straight and didn’t really belong there. He told us that he
was not going to serve us and asked us nicely to leave and so we did with no problems.
Now I had no idea how someone could really tell whether you are gay or straight but I
image everybody knew about everybody in that bar.
Fact is that we were discriminated against because we were not gay.
My opinion is...
It’s their bar, they opened it for a reason and if they decide we don’t belong in there, that’s
their prerogative.
So it being their place of gathering they have set standards that they believe in, I
personally have no problem with it either way.
goofy

---
Posted by dadnerd - (207.153.97.229) on November 01, 2000 at 15:17:18:

In Reply to: a little story posted by goofygrape on November 01, 2000 at 15:03:29:

Nice story. And telling in another way. I was in a lesbian bar last year with four ppl, one woman three men. It was obvious we were not gay. The behavior of the woman behind the bar giving us drinks was perfect. No sense of why are you here, etc...Everyone was cool, and I never felt unwelcomed.

Damn does this mean women are superior no matter what affiliation they are? Just as I suspected...

Almost embarassed to be male sometimes.

--
Posted by daruba - (199.246.228.2) on November 01, 2000 at 13:30:39:

In Reply to: Re: about gay rights posted by goofygrape on November 01, 2000 at 12:24:43:

goofy says "Why the heck can’t all humans live equally under one set of laws and rights and quit giving
special preferences for race, sex or sexual preferences?"

you make it sound like there once was a glorious mythical era when ppl lived equally under one set of laws and we must move BACK to the era.

Show me such a society and I'll say Shangri-La

---
Posted by serendipity - ts028d31.sjc-ca.concentric.net (206.173.232.139) on November 01, 2000 at 12:10:16:

In Reply to: gore's issues/platform (he is pro abortion) posted by ANA on November 01, 2000 at 11:42:34:

Thanks for posting these comparisons, Ana. One missing fact is that Gore got a B.A. with honors in Government from Harvard in 1969. And here are a couple of factoids, for what they're worth (people might find SAT and IQ scores meaningless, but here they are anyway.) Gore got a combined SAT of 1355 (625 verbal, 730 math). Bush got a combined SAT score of 1206 (566 verbal, 640 math). Gore's IQ was tested in 1961 and 1964; the results were 133 and 134, respectively. I don't know Bush's IQ score. Two URLs of possible interest, in case the link thingy doesn't work:

http://www.dallasnews.com/specials/campaign_2000/gore/go0626harvard.htm

and

http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37397-2000Mar18.html

---
Posted by haikucoo - (12.33.4.226) on November 01, 2000 at 16:45:39:

In Reply to: partial birth abortion posted by ANA on November 01, 2000 at 14:29:43:

partial birth abortion is the sickening name given to a medical procedure by the pro-life right wing. It's the termination of a pregnancy during the third trimester. Abortion in the third trimester is illegal, but there are certain, horribly unfortunate medical situations which call for the termination of a pregnancy at this late stage. the procedure is NOT performed because the woman doesn't want the baby. it is only performed when the fetus is brain dead or positively non-viable and the health of the mother is in serious danger. a friend of mine had the procedure. x-rays and other test revealed that her baby had no brain, just a brain stem. the fetus was dying inside her and infection was attacking the unborn child and the placenta. My friend could have died of peratinitis if she had carried the child to term. there was no chance that the baby could have survived outside the womb. i can't imagine what kind of sadistic sicko thinks this human tragedy is a political issue.

---
Posted by DngrMaus - tnt02dla032.winnipeg.escape.ca (216.81.6.32) on November 01, 2000 at 19:09:10:

It looks like Men's Rights is a hot topic today so I thought I'd throw my two cents in...

For thousands of years it has has been the job of men to make up armies and defend their countries against foreign threats (both real or perceived). It has been the job of men to fight and often die. Women usually have served in a support capacity and thus have suffered less casualties. Only recently have women started to begin to be accepted in a combat capacity and serve along side the men.

I say it's about damn time! Why should men always be the ones to get their asses shot off on some God-forsaken rock? If women want to sign up and take my place on the battlefield I say more power to them! Equality is more than just letting everyone have the same rights and privelges, it's also about sharing responsibility....

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Posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 10:32:39:

In Reply to: Women in the military posted by DngrMaus on November 01, 2000 at 19:09:10:

umm, excuse me...but women were never ALLOWED into the military until just recently. and it was because of women protesting that they couldn't be in the military that a few got in just in the last few decades. and STILL women are treated like shit IF they get into th emilitary because they are still just not accepted as equals

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Posted by freekee - milw2t1rex.execpc.net (169.207.180.242) on November 02, 2000 at 07:30:23:

In Reply to: Women in the military posted by DngrMaus on November 01, 2000 at 19:09:10:

Yeah, lets have some women get THEIR asses shot off!

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Posted by Ms Fledermaus - (206.144.146.12) on November 02, 2000 at 08:39:17:

In Reply to: Re: Women in the military posted by freekee on November 02, 2000 at 07:30:23:

...women take a lot of casualties in a war whether their on the front lines or not.
What makes people think women haven't been on the front lines? (some indirectly, some fighting
for their homes and families.) Our society is just attemptimg to formalize it.
(Not a bad thing, either.) But women have been fighting wars for millenia.

Ms Fledermaus, chucking pennies again.

---
Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-to012.proxy.aol.com (152.163.204.47) on November 02, 2000 at 09:14:45:

In Reply to: Re: Women in the military posted by Ms Fledermaus on November 02, 2000 at 08:39:17:

Yes, but the casualties were not there for women, at least not on the scale as for men. And women do not fight on the FRONT LINES of actual battles and get blown away like men are required to do. I'd rather be fighting indirectly, fighting
for my home my family.

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Posted by Ms Fledermaus - (206.144.146.12) on November 02, 2000 at 09:28:14:

In Reply to: Re: Women in the military posted by Justin Zellers on November 02, 2000 at 09:14:45:

No, women instead are raped and murdered by the occupying forces.
Often they do dies on the scale of soldiers, they just don't get as much
notice, because the atrocites are not honorable (?) combat. I'm saying there's
not that much difference in the formalized version of combat and the informal
ways of fighting for your life. The guns are bigger, that's about it.
I'm honestly not trying to say front-line men are less deserving of compassion or sympathy,
I come from an entire family of career military men. I'm just saying there's another part of war that
people forget until it's pushed right into your face, like Bosnia or Rwanda or Afghanistan.
We forget it at our shame and peril.

Ms Fledermaus.

---
Posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 10:37:00:

In Reply to: More pennies... posted by Ms Fledermaus on November 02, 2000 at 09:28:14:

fuck ya! right on!

hell, WAKE UP there is a WAR AGAINST WOMEN EVERYDAY!!!!
and women ARE on the frontlines of this war EVERYDAY.

when i leave my house i literally have 2 psyche myself up..watch where i go, carry mace and sometimes a gun, and a camera 2 document the shit that happens around me...and i have to get inside before dark, because if i stay out there after dark "it's open season". and what that means is that if i get raped when it's dark outside...i am just stupid. because i should know better than to go out after dark.

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Posted by TinkAlicious - spider-wi053.proxy.aol.com (205.188.197.43) on November 02, 2000 at 13:50:03:

In Reply to: war against women EVERYDAY posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 10:37:00:

I will no longer leave my house unless I am with someone else, that is how bad it is for me! when I did go out by myself I got chased by men in cars some literally getting out of their cars and chasing me on foot. my sister didn't believe me until one night she went out with me and it happened, two different men got out of thier cars and chased us. this occuring within about 5 blocks from our house, when we finally got in the house she said to me "I'm never going out with you again!" so justin how many times has this happened to you?? can you leave your house without an escort? I am thinking the answer is yes. well I SHOULD be able to aswell!

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Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-wn051.proxy.aol.com (205.188.197.171) on November 02, 2000 at 13:55:48:

In Reply to: Re: war against women EVERYDAY posted by TinkAlicious on November 02, 2000 at 13:50:03:

WHERE DO YOU LIVE?????? THAT'S INSANE!!!

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Posted by TinkAlicious - spider-wg022.proxy.aol.com (205.188.196.27) on November 02, 2000 at 16:40:07:

In Reply to: Re: war against women EVERYDAY posted by Justin Zellers on November 02, 2000 at 13:55:48:

Chicago IL.

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Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-tq022.proxy.aol.com (152.163.201.52) on November 02, 2000 at 18:01:01:

In Reply to: Re: war against women EVERYDAY posted by TinkAlicious on November 02, 2000 at 16:40:07:

That explains it. I'm sorry you have these problems. Big cities are not for me for that very reason. I don't want to get my ass beat just because I'm a guy just like you don't want to get assulted out there... Ft. Wayne, IN is good for me! Sorry if I offended you, I am not here to start trouble. Good luck with all your efforts.

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Posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 20:41:04:

In Reply to: Re: war against women EVERYDAY posted by Justin Zellers on November 02, 2000 at 18:01:01:

ya, well i live in minneapolis, mn. which is far smaller than chicago, and i get the same thing

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Posted by Ms Fledermaus - (206.144.146.12) on November 02, 2000 at 14:04:40:

In Reply to: Re: war against women EVERYDAY posted by Justin Zellers on November 02, 2000 at 13:55:48:

No, that's everyday life. Me too. Minneapolis has a *low*
crime rate...except for rape and domestic assault.
I even nnearly got mugged the other day--broad daylight.
I held off my attackers with an Arizona tea bottle, (Heavy glass with a wide neck--THAN YOU, ARIZONA TEA CO!)
and they finally scrammed...but it took 5 minutes for them to figure out I was not a good target,
and I was wearing a motorcycle jacket and big leather boots. The only reason they
even tried for me was I was female.
This is everyday stuff.

---
Posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 20:42:40:

In Reply to: Re: war against women EVERYDAY posted by Ms Fledermaus on November 02, 2000 at 14:04:40:

no lie, i get that too, even in the daytime!

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Posted by TinkAlicious - spider-wg022.proxy.aol.com (205.188.196.27) on November 02, 2000 at 16:44:46:

In Reply to: Re: war against women EVERYDAY posted by Ms Fledermaus on November 02, 2000 at 14:04:40:

Exactly! Justin you will never truly understand what we as women go through EVERY single day and night, unless ofcourse you can convincingly dress up as a woman and take a walk (or more likely an unscheduled run from some strange man) in our shoes sometime.

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Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-wd071.proxy.aol.com (205.188.193.181) on November 03, 2000 at 23:39:18:

In Reply to: Re: war against women EVERYDAY posted by TinkAlicious on November 02, 2000 at 16:44:46:

And you will never know what it's like to be a man unless you take on the same responsibilities as a man.

---
Posted by ANA on November 04, 2000 at 17:45:21:

In Reply to: Re: war against women EVERYDAY posted by Justin Zellers on November 03, 2000 at 23:39:18:

and u will never understand what it is like 2 be a woman...not even if u took on the responsibilities as a woman

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Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-wc082.proxy.aol.com (205.188.193.57) on November 02, 2000 at 11:03:00:

In Reply to: war against women EVERYDAY posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 10:37:00:

Unbelievable.

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Posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 11:09:44:

In Reply to: Re: war against women EVERYDAY posted by Justin Zellers on November 02, 2000 at 11:03:00:

you think i am making this stuff up???
what the fuck?

u are HARDLY acting like a "humanist" nor do all your links that u have posted here make ANY correlation to being a humanist if u are so gung ho on being one.

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Posted by Bud - 251.akron-01-02rs.oh.dial-access.att.net (12.76.88.251) on November 01, 2000 at 20:29:36:

You posed the question, "is feminism hurting men?", I am of the firm belief that feminism is hurting women and the relationships between men and women more than men alone. As one example, men used to work outside the home and women in the home, cleaning and cooking and having children. Now that women have been liberated, both work outside the home and the women still come home and cook and clean and have children. I try to help my wife in the housework, but most men still come home and read the paper while waiting for supper. The predefined roles haven't changed and women are working twice as hard as before

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Posted by Ed - (207.190.143.139) on November 01, 2000 at 20:44:58:

In Reply to: re: is feminism hurting men posted by Bud on November 01, 2000 at 20:29:36:

You are so right. I am in the Navy and I guarantee my wife works twice as hard as I do with me going to sea. Growing up my Father told me to treat every woman like a queen. That includes giving up your seat, opening doors, tipping your hat etc...
I actually got scolded for giving up my subway seat in NYC during a Navy visit. I just couldn't believe it. Is that what feminism is? Well it wont deter me. I will still open doors and give up my seat no matter how am I treated. It is just the right thing to do.

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Posted by pookie2 - spider-wi084.proxy.aol.com (205.188.197.59) on November 01, 2000 at 21:25:50:

In Reply to: Re: re: is feminism hurting men posted by Ed on November 01, 2000 at 20:44:58:

That is what we need to get over and get rid of. That is the biggest load of bullshit ever. Men don't need to do that, and women don't need for men to do that. Men and women should do those sort of things for eachother whenever they feel like being nice. Not just men should! Haven't we gotten past that point!!!

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Posted by blonnie - (207.199.148.247) on November 02, 2000 at 05:44:58:

In Reply to: Re: re: is feminism hurting men posted by pookie2 on November 01, 2000 at 21:25:50:

i may have completely just misunderstood your comments, but to me it sounds like you just contradicted yourself. you said "Men don't need to do that, and women don't need for men to do that. Men and women should do those sort of things for eachother whenever they feel like being nice. Not just men should! Haven't we gotten past that point!!!" i can't tell if you're angry because -he- offered his seat? or if you're angry because the other person got angry he offered it? if it's the first thing..then i do not understand your reasoning. he -was- being nice..he -did- feel like being nice. ?????

-

personally, i think the women should -not- be descriminated against in the workforce or -society- where men feel that women can't do an equal job. but there -are- times when women can't do an equal job *some* women..because we are not nearly as muscular as men..& that is a proven, scientific fact about our -body structure-.

i -like- for men to open the door for me. i like for women to also....i mean, i'd rather the person not walk in & then have the door slam in my face.. but if i'm going out on a date & the guy opens the door for me.. or pulls out my chair at the restaurant, he just got some 'extra points'.. it's -manners- & simply that. i would never get angry because someone was being nice & courteous!

so basically, i like the part of 'feminism' which doesn't allow discrimination..women are equally smart..etc.. but there are -some- things that men are just simply better at, as there are -some- things that women are simply better at.. it's genetics.

i'm sorry, i'm probably going to get a lot of women angry at me for my post..but it's the way i -feel- & i'm not going to change that just because it's the up & coming thing to do..or feel.

& i'd also like to note, that i agree w/the originator of this thread

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Posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 08:48:52:

In Reply to: Re: re: is feminism hurting men posted by blonnie on November 02, 2000 at 05:44:58:

i also thinkk it is very nice and polite when people hold doors open for me. i have noth men and women do that for me, and i also hold doors open for both women or men.

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Posted by Ant - naween.mmu.ac.uk (149.170.190.140) on November 02, 2000 at 04:17:32:

Ana their are over twenty different types of feminism ranging in their views and extremity so it depends, one was called SCUM (Society for Cutting Up Men!) they didn't beleibve they needed men but other types just ask for equality and equal oppportunities.The Feministic views of equality are often very closely linked to capitalism bacuse of the female views on being treated equally. email me your views - Ant

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Posted by haikucoo - (12.33.4.226) on November 02, 2000 at 12:32:05:

In Reply to: FEMINISM - It depends what you mean ana posted by Ant on November 02, 2000 at 04:17:32:

i believe SCUM was a movement of one: Valerie Solanas, the woman who shot Andy Warhol. If you read her SCUM Manifesto, you’ll see how absurd it is. She’s a psychopath and anyone who takes her seriously is a fool.

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Posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 08:45:38:

In Reply to: FEMINISM - It depends what you mean ana posted by Ant on November 02, 2000 at 04:17:32:

feminism has gotten a bad rap by a few apples that spolied the apple cart.

feminism does not mean " i hate men" no "women should rule the world"

here is the CORRECT term for feminism taken out of the dictionary:

fem·i·nism (fm-nzm)
n.

Belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes.
The movement organized around this belief.

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Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-to012.proxy.aol.com (152.163.204.47) on November 02, 2000 at 09:08:55:

In Reply to: Re: FEMINISM - It depends what you mean ana posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 08:45:38:

Then why is there a definition for feminism and nothing for....malism? There is not even such a term. I think that feminists should go by the term HUMANIST so that we can all be included and work on equal rights together.

--
Posted by Director in charge of peeing while standing up - (207.236.99.60) on November 02, 2000 at 10:30:41:

In Reply to: Re: FEMINISM - It depends what you mean ana posted by Justin Zellers on November 02, 2000 at 09:08:55:

>>>Then why is there a definition for feminism and nothing for....malism?

why is there no antonym (woman hating men) for misogynist?

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Posted by gazebo - ip175.isdn14.800.psi.net (38.30.13.175) on November 02, 2000 at 15:42:27:

In Reply to: Re: FEMINISM - It depends what you mean ana posted by Director in charge of peeing while standing up on November 02, 2000 at 10:30:41:

There is a name for a woman who hates a man: "castrator".

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Posted by farbel - dslpppc19.phnx.uswest.net (63.224.148.19) on November 02, 2000 at 14:51:48:

In Reply to: Re: FEMINISM - It depends what you mean ana posted by Director in charge of peeing while standing up on November 02, 2000 at 10:30:41:

i looked it up once: misandist

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Posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 11:06:02:

In Reply to: Re: FEMINISM - It depends what you mean ana posted by Justin Zellers on November 02, 2000 at 10:58:12:

"man hating" found in 2 items.
Misanthropy

Excerpt: "..., egotist, cynic, man hater, Timon, Diogenes. woman hater, misogynist..."

---
Posted by freekee - milw2t1rex.execpc.net (169.207.180.242) on November 02, 2000 at 11:12:16:

In Reply to: Re: FEMINISM - It depends what you mean ana posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 11:06:02:

Misanthropy generally refers to the dislike of mankind, not just men.

---
Posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 11:18:39:

In Reply to: misanthropy posted by freekee on November 02, 2000 at 11:12:16:

it's still the correct word , tho

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Posted by freekee - milw2t1rex.execpc.net (169.207.180.242) on November 02, 2000 at 11:26:03:

In Reply to: Re: misanthropy posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 11:18:39:

Technically, yes. But you'd have to be *careful*, if you used the word, that your meaning was understood.

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Posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 11:28:11:

In Reply to: Re: misanthropy posted by freekee on November 02, 2000 at 11:26:03:

just as when i say the word "feminist"...it seems the meaning is most often misundertood

---

Posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 10:08:16:

In Reply to: Re: FEMINISM - It depends what you mean ana posted by Justin Zellers on November 02, 2000 at 09:08:55:

since feminism means working on equal rights together...why don't u just call yourself a feminist?
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Posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 11:26:42:

In Reply to: Re: FEMINISM - It depends what you mean ana posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 10:08:16:

and i'll take that one step further by saying...

i don't think u CAN be a humanist without being a feminist...since being a humanist includes helping all thing human...are u by default a feminist if u are a humanist...

so until u can say that u are a feminist, justin, i do not believe u at all that u are a humanist.

your links are not even humanist

i think u are really a mysogynist that is trying 2 cover that up by saying that u are a humanist.

u can't walk the walk, and u certainly can't talk the talk
---
Posted by daruba - (199.246.228.2) on November 02, 2000 at 11:53:38:

In Reply to: Re: FEMINISM - It depends what you mean ana posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 11:26:42:

"i don't think u CAN be a humanist without being a feminist"

too true...
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Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-wc082.proxy.aol.com (205.188.193.57) on November 02, 2000 at 11:00:18:

In Reply to: Re: FEMINISM - It depends what you mean ana posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 10:08:16:

Because FEMALE is the word feminist stems from. I am in it for males too, not just females. Why would you not go by Humanist?

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Posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 11:07:08:

In Reply to: Re: FEMINISM - It depends what you mean ana posted by Justin Zellers on November 02, 2000 at 11:00:18:

i am a humanist and a feminist.
why can't u just say you are a feminist, too?
don't u want 2 help women out?
---
Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-wc082.proxy.aol.com (205.188.193.57) on November 02, 2000 at 11:17:00:

In Reply to: Re: FEMINISM - It depends what you mean ana posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 11:07:08:

Of course I do, but I obviously feel that men need just as much help now, therefore, I am a 100% Humanist. Don't get me wrong, I am as much for women as I am for men, but being a man in today's society, I experience first hand the things these articles talk about. Let's all just love eachother and help eachother.

---
Posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 11:20:13:

In Reply to: Re: FEMINISM - It depends what you mean ana posted by Justin Zellers on November 02, 2000 at 11:17:00:

why can't u be a humanist AND a feminist?
what is so HARD about that?

---
Posted by Chris - 209-122-217-16.s16.tnt1.atn.pa.dialup.rcn.com (209.122.217.16) on November 03, 2000 at 00:52:35:

In Reply to: Re: FEMINISM - It depends what you mean ana posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 11:20:13:

What's sad is that I had this really nice long post, and then somehow managed to accidentally hit the reload button.... darn it.

Ah well. Such is life. Allow me to reiterate the salient points. I'm a lurker (at best) and this one really caught my attention, so I decided to
speak up.

The reason that many people will refuse to identify themselves as "Feminists" is because the feminist movement, like so many other noble ideas,
was hijacked by extremists very early on, and is in all likelihood, irrevocably corrupted. Legally, the movement is almost a dead issue. For
the most part, what it strives for now is not equality, but special protections and privileges. Women entering into basic training were proven to be incapable of completing the same course as men,
so the level of difficulty was reduced. I fully endorse women in the military. But if they go, they should a.) have to register for the draft like men do, and b.) take the
EXACT SAME course as the men, WITH the men. Segregation is a BAD idea, regardless of the basis. Most feminists strive to protect the Roe vs Wade ruling (as do I, for that matter), but
nobody batted an eyelash when some poor shmuck was forced by a court to surrender any control of frozen fertilized ova when he and his wife split. There's some Extremely minor justification
to the fact that a Husband has no legal input when it come to abortion, but were talkin' about frozen eggs here folks. Half his genetic material, and he has NO control over it. The always-popular classic:
Two drunk people (utterly wasted) hook up in a bar, and go back to his apartment and proceed to have sex. She wakes up, realizes what she's done, and decides that she didn't want this. In many
states, (possibly most) It is now Rape, since seeing as how the woman was drunk, she was not capable of granting consent. Nevermind the fact that the man was drunk too, he "should have known better".

To be honest, one could continue with examples like that all day. And more radical feminists could do the same, the problem being that most of their examples would be ones that existed in violation of
one or another laws, as opposed to being situations created by them.

On the issue of societal pressures, and the deficiencies in female education in the US, most of the so-called "Pop-Feminist" bull has been disproven rather neatly. Girls do better than boys in school,
and have for some time, Girls might attempt suicide more often, boys succeed 4 times as often, etc. Life sucks all around. Get used to it. Sure, a woman going out after dark is more likely to get robbed,
raped, or murdered. In the case of two out of three of those, it has nothing do with the fact that she's female, it has to do with the fact that she's smaller and weaker than the average male. And, let's be honest here
folks, men do in fact do most of the robbing, murdering and raping out there. Heck, you put me in NYC, and I'D be afraid to walk down rather a lot of city streets alone at night. And I'm 6'3" and weigh 245 lbs, and I ain't
all that fat. Indeed, there are places that I won't go NOW, for the simple reason that I was targeted for violence based on the fact that I AM a large, white, male.

As for discrimination in the workplace, I've never seen it. NEVER. And I do look. I've seen reverse-discrimination once. I wasn't working for the woman in question, but she did go on record to a job-seeker that they
ONLY hired women. Which, I might add, is patently illegal, and had it been reversed the aforementioned woman would be in the middle of a nasty lawsuit. As it is the man in question swallowed his pride and sought
employment elsewhere. And no, this isn't about that idiot who tried to get a job serving tables at Hooters.

As for extremists, that's something that often creeps up on the unwary. The concept that EVERY woman is discriminated against, that the world would be a utopia if only the women were in charge, that men are inherently superior to women, and other such drivel
is something that sneaks in around you. You get used to seeing it and eventually you start to believe it.

As for foreign countries, that's something that is often a horrible horrible truth. In many countries, women are basically treated as less than livestock. We in the US, however, don't live in one of those countries, and to be honest,
there's not much we can do about it. We'll do what we can, but it will take TIME.

As for the anger of white males: It's real and it's quite justified. UNDERSTAND THIS. White men are basically being told that they are the root of all evil, that they have somehow been holding down the rest of the human race, and
that to say otherwise makes you some sort of a criminal. This phenomenon is worse among the younger generations, and may have something to do with the increase in male dropouts from lower education. It's not pretty, and it's
not entirely rational, but very little is in this world, and there's only so much crap that you can heap on one group before they refuse to take any more. Are things really that bad? No. But men are being TOLD THAT THEY ARE.

To sum up,. the United States, as a society, is moving into the latter portion of a major shift that began with Women's Suffrage, and possibly reached it's fruition in the birth control pill. The part we're in now is delicate. And the
established extremist groups are NOT HELPING. Too many of them deliberately feed false information to further their own political ends, and end up debasing the movement as a whole when their motives are discovered. I might add that this
very same arguement holds true for the plight of minority groups in the US as well. Add to that the simple fact that we live in a "modern" society (and feel free to look up the studies on exactly that that level of crowding DOES to humans), and we're
faced with a dilemma.

What we need is HONESTY, Equality, and above all a little common sense, and with luck we'll all survive another twenty years and this whole thing will be done with.

That being said, I'll NEVER identify myself as a Feminist. The word simply has too much baggage, and too many fools who build their own empires under the masquerade of equality for all.
I'll stick with Humanist and be happy with it. Perhaps even Secular Humanist, if the Rev. Orson Scott Card will have me (kudos to those who get the joke)

Stay sane.

---
Posted by daruba - (199.246.228.2) on November 02, 2000 at 08:51:15:

In Reply to: Re: FEMINISM - It depends what you mean ana posted by ANA on November 02, 2000 at 08:45:38:

i like a simple definition like that (of feminism). It basically means if you are heterosexual and treat your partner fairly and get pissed off when they get shafted at work or in society because of their gender, and you do something about it, you are a feminist...

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re: feminism
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by Dave-id - 24-216-98-202.hsacorp.net (24.216.98.202) on November 02, 2000 at 08:55:55:

I dont belive its doing men any harm, but the change in gender roles over the last 30+ years has caused us(men) alot of confusion. Things are not as black and white as they were for our fathers.

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Posted by freekee - milw2t1rex.execpc.net (169.207.180.242) on November 02, 2000 at 11:13:16:

In Reply to: re: Feminism posted by Dave-id on November 02, 2000 at 08:55:55:

And it has given women a whole new set of fights to be fought.

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Posted by whorlpool - (207.31.234.39) on November 02, 2000 at 12:44:58:

I don't understand how you can say that women have achieved equality.

Before you answer, look around you. I mean, REALLY look around you.

1. Who leads most of the countries in the world: men or women?
2. Who leads nearly every corporation in the U.S.: men or women?
3. Out of the richest fifty Americans, how many are women?
4. How many Senators are women?
5. How many Representatives are women?
6. How many women die each year from domestic violence? And how many men die each year from domestic violence?
7. Walk down the street wearing short shorts and a tanktop. How many people whistle and stare at you? How many people come over to talk to you? How many people touch you? How much do you fear for your safety?
8. Raise your hand in a classroom. Count how long it takes for the teacher to call on you. Watch the women who raise their hands. How long does it take for them to be called upon? Listen carefully to the way teachers respond to the men versus the women in the class.
9. How many science and math teachers have you had who have been women?
10. Walk around the streets after midnight. What is the proportion of men to women?
11. Walk into a bar with a woman. Count how many times you get touched versus how many times the woman gets touched. How many people move within your personal space? How many people move within the woman's personal space?
12. Watch television. Out of ten random advertisements, how many women are being waited upon by men? How many men are being waited upon by women? (And here, I'm of course including how many women, versus how many men, are at home cooking and cleaning).
13. In advertisements, how many women seem to be valued for their intelligence versus their bodies. I know that some women in ads are in fact valued for their intelligence. I'm asking you, however, to do a count, an objective count. Watch tv for two hours, and take notes about what you see.

14. Finally, listen carefully to what women are telling you. The women on this bbs have told you, over and over again, that they feel discriminated against. You seem to deny that they are in fact, discriminated against more than men are. Are they lying? Do you, as a man, truly have the right to tell them that they are wrong in their perceptions? Do you, with less than 20 years on this planet, have the right to tell women, some of whom are well into their thirties, that their experiences and perceptions are distorted, that they just don't realize how bad men have it and that they themselves have equal rights even though they vehemently deny such an assertion? Is there a single woman on this bbs who believes that women have achieved equality?

You chose to post your links about men's rights on this bbs. You claim you've been around for two years, reading ana's words. If you truly have respect for her, and if you truly value the opinions of the people on this bbs, if you believe that we should give an honest listen to your perspective...then you yourself need to listen to what we are saying.

We are willing to listen to you; we are willing to be influenced by you if you are persuasive. But ONLY if we believe that we have the power to persuade you as well. If this is a discussion, and if none of us could possibly know everything there is to know, then people on both sides of this issue, and that includes you, need to listen to each other. You have given us a great deal of your evidence. We are giving you ours.

We are telling you, unequivocally, that women have not yet arrived. We are all telling you this.

You have a choice now.

- You can just get frustrated and angry at all of us for sharing with you our experiences and insights (experiences and insights that we have earned the right to have) that happen to differ from your experiences and insights.

- Or you can step back and think objectively about what you have seen in this discussion (as you are asking us to step back and think about what we have seen).

Thanks.

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Posted by Chris - 216-164-200-179.s433.tnt4.atn.pa.dialup.rcn.com (216.164.200.179) on November 03, 2000 at 12:58:50:

In Reply to: Justin posted by whorlpool on November 02, 2000 at 12:44:58:

1. Who leads most of the countries in the world: men or women?
2. Who leads nearly every corporation in the U.S.: men or women?
3. Out of the richest fifty Americans, how many are women?
4. How many Senators are women?
5. How many Representatives are women?

The answer to the first five of these is simple: Wait and see in 20 years. Societal changes take TIME, not measured in years, but in generations.
Let me amend that. The first one won't change necessarily in 20 years, because not everyone lives in the US.

6. How many women die each year from domestic violence? And how many men die each year from domestic
violence?

About two women for every man. Give or take.

7. Walk down the street wearing short shorts and a tanktop. How many people whistle and stare at you? How
many people come over to talk to you? How many people touch you? How much do you fear for your safety?

Nothing personal, but this is one of the STUPIDEST examples I've ever seen, and the fact that it continues to
be made regardless is profoundly irritating. If *I* were to walk down the street wearing short shorts and a tanktop,
I'd be stared at, laughed at, many people would come over to talk to me (with nothing nice to say at all) and
while not too many folks would decide to touch me, I'd be in severe danger of getting my ass kicked. Trust me,
it's a rare thing to see legs THIS hairy. My point is that given the society that we live in, if you decide to walk
down the street with short shorts and a tanktop, and you recieve attention, you either a.) dressed in that fashion
to elicit attention, or b.) are too stupid to be let out of the house without a keeper. As for the last two, you have
something of a point. Nobody should fear for their safety. Unfortunately, until such time as we begin to
drastically alter the way society is arranged, EVERYONE will have a certain degree of fear. Modern human
social groups are simply too large and too crowded, and under conditions like that in rats, they tend to indulge
in murder, rape, cannibalism and other unsavory activities. In short, they behave like people in NYC. :)

8. Raise your hand in a classroom. Count how long it takes for the teacher to call on you. Watch the women who
raise their hands. How long does it take for them to be called upon? Listen carefully to the way teachers
respond to the men versus the women in the class.

If women are so bloody underprivileged in the classroom, why is it that more of them do well in school, and more
of them go on to attend college, and the gap is widening every year? Twenty years ago, you might have had a
point. As it is, the studies you're basing your opinion on were NOT conducted by someone who was looking for
the truth. They were conducted by someone who was looking for justification for THEIR opinion. And if you'd
bothered to READ the links that Justin posted, you'd have at least some idea of that fact.

9. How many science and math teachers have you had who have been women?

How many teachers PERIOD have you had that were men at all? Considereably less than half as many as were
women.

10. Walk around the streets after midnight. What is the proportion of men to women?

What does this have to do with anything? Where I live, walking the streets after midnight is an empty
endeavour, since NOBODY'S out there.

11. Walk into a bar with a woman. Count how many times you get touched versus how many times the woman
gets touched. How many people move within your personal space? How many people move within the woman's
personal space?

I get touched less often than most folks regardless of gender. Plenty of people invade my personal space, more
than invade ANY woman's if for the simple fact that I have a LOT of personal space. As far as I'm concerned, it
extends to just beyond the reach of my arms in all directions.

And, BTW, I've performed this experiment. The answer was a.) Zero and Zero, and b.) Identical.

12. Watch television. Out of ten random advertisements, how many women are being waited upon by men?
How many men are being waited upon by women? (And here, I'm of course including how many women, versus
how many men, are at home cooking and cleaning).

Watch television. Out of ten random TV shows, how many men are portrayed as bumbling idiots who shouldn't
be let outside without a woman to keep them out of trouble?

13.

See above answer. Heck, for that matter, go back and look at those same commercials yourself. YOU might be
suprised.

14. Finally, listen carefully to what women are telling you.

I do. And most of the ones that I know, have no complaints.

As for the nature of equal rights between men and women. You're right. There are NOT equal rights. Women
have MORE "Rights" than Men do. What you're complaining about is Opportunity, and that is somewhere
that women are making ground rapidly. In 10-20 years (quite fast in terms of societal changes) I forsee that
women will be in just as many posititions of power as men. What men don't like is the fact that certain
elements are attemting to shrink that time period through artificial means. Affirmative Action is a BAD idea.
Granting special preference and priviledge to ANYONE is a bad idea. It creates resentment, elevates people
ABOVE their level of incompetence, and for every person it helps, it by definition has to hurt someone else.

>We are telling you, unequivocally, that women have not yet arrived. We are all telling you this.

A patently untrue statement. Not everyone is saying this. In any debate, it is wise to avoid absolutes unless
you can back them up. Women have not yet "Arrived" in the sense that they're not in positions of equal
power just yet. But they will be. All the legal precendents are in place. All that remains now is hard work
and patience.

Really, the last bastion of male "Supremacy" yet to be stormed by the feminist legions (interesting image,
that) is the military. And they're well on their way in that one, but proceed to go about it in the wrong way.
If women really want to be accepted in the military, they should go through the same training as the men,
with the men, and all women should register for the draft. Until such time as they do, it's unlikely that
women will EVER be accepted fully in the role of the front-line soldier.

---
Posted by dadnerd - (207.153.97.229) on November 02, 2000 at 16:22:06:

In Reply to: Justin posted by whorlpool on November 02, 2000 at 12:44:58:

Yes Whorlpool is rather articulate and reasonable and smart. And you must have taken some time posting that, and it's much appreciated, thanks.

I think we all get Justins point, but its moot. I'm a white male and have never had any door shut in my face. Women have a long way to go. This country is formost in achieving that goal, and will set the example to the world. Its just the beginning we have to be patient, great things take time.
dad

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Posted by veto - c652612-a.hmmnd1.in.home.com (24.14.171.15) on November 02, 2000 at 14:22:45:

In Reply to: Justin posted by whorlpool on November 02, 2000 at 12:44:58:

How many women can Bench press (or even budge) 200 lbs?
How many women can belch the alphabet and still retain some dignity?
How many women can change a flat tire?
How many women hunt and kill game?
How many women can operate heavy machinery (eg.jackhammer)?
How many women can admit to being wrong even when they are not?
How many women can piss their name in the snow?
How many women can grow facial hair?

I can go on all day.

Im not sexist. I just believe equality has be achieved by women.

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Posted by rdsc - host62-7-70-119.btinternet.com (62.7.70.119) on November 02, 2000 at 17:16:41:

In Reply to: Re: Justin posted by veto on November 02, 2000 at 14:22:45:

1) Who cares?
2) Who cares? (what! you know the alpabet from A to Z! Clever boy!!
3) Am I picking up a "manual dexterity" thread here?
4) "Oh I know! They all reek so heavily of perfume! the deer can smell them a mile off!! (Is this an important skill in America? I thought you had supermarkets?) PLUS it ain't that hard to aim straight, ask the Amazons.
5) Women are very good with heavy machinery. They can even drive cars!!!
6) Okay. You got me there. I'm completely lost for a list of men who couldn't admit they were wrong: like Hitler, Stalin, McCarthy....
7) Who cares? Women have to achieve equality with people who can piss in the snow?? Who cares where you're pissing?!?
8) Ok, you're being ironic aren't you? (grin) You're going to take all of that bullshit back cos you were just being funny, aren't you? Aren't you?

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Posted by Ms Fledermaus - (206.144.146.12) on November 02, 2000 at 15:58:35:

In Reply to: Re: Justin posted by veto on November 02, 2000 at 14:22:45:

Well, I can't speak for all of my sisters, but I'm a better shot than my brother:)
Also, I move 200 pounds almost daily...it's called a two-wheeler.
And forgive me, but no one...ever...can belch the alphabet and retain ANY dignity.
I've used all kinds of heavy machinery, including various saws, drills, and
forklifts. (shopping for a hammerdrill and carbide tips right now:)
As for the others, ...I think I'll pass on the writing my name in the snow, facial hair, ect.
I do find your "Being wrong' statement disturbing, however...compromise is important, to be sure, but
just bowing when someone doesn't agree isn't real communication.
(Neither is just being bullish about it either, for either gender.)

I think my point meandered, but...gender really doesn't have a deathlock on behavior or skills.

Ms Fledermaus, butch, yet so very femme....:)

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Posted by Chris - 216-164-200-179.s433.tnt4.atn.pa.dialup.rcn.com (216.164.200.179) on November 03, 2000 at 12:20:22:

In Reply to: Re: Justin the Nick of time... posted by veto on November 02, 2000 at 16:12:27:

Hmmmm...

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but men and women are not identical. :)

Men are stronger and tougher on a pound-for-pound basis. It's a fact. As a consequence, men live shorter lives. That's a fact too.

Now, the flip side of this is that women can endure hardships (in a physical sense) for slightly longer than men, and tend to live longer lives.

My point is simply: Men and women may be EQUAL, but not identical. The number of women who can bench 200 is infinitesmal next to the number of men who can perform the same feat. And it always will be. Women, of course, get the last laugh, since they get to watch the aforementioned weight lifter die of old age....

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Posted by Ms Fledermaus - (206.144.146.12) on November 03, 2000 at 12:34:31:

In Reply to: Re: Justin the Nick of time... posted by Chris on November 03, 2000 at 12:20:22:

Yeah, there's some very physical differences, but often in debates like this they're blown WAY out of proportion:)
(For example, women make better astronauts because of physical differences,
better tolerances for g forces, etcetera, and men are physically stronger.)
So often in these arguements, the differences are brought up in such a way
as to be rather deficient on the women's side. ("Can YOU hunt? Can you Belch?"
Puh-lease!:) yeah, we're different, but not so much as people think, really...

Ms Fledermaus, getting kinda sick of the whole damn topic...I'm off to Bolivia, and you can come too if you're good...
(See below)

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Posted by Chris - 216-164-200-179.s433.tnt4.atn.pa.dialup.rcn.com (216.164.200.179) on November 03, 2000 at 13:19:49:

In Reply to: Separate but equal? posted by Ms Fledermaus on November 03, 2000 at 12:34:31:

Actually, the whole women as astronauts thing had more to do with supposedly better reflexes (not yet
proven satisfactorally) and better tolerance for ZERO-G, since G-Tolerance is a function of physical strength.
On the down side though, it's harder for them to urinate neatly in space. :P

As for the exaggeration of physical differences, I didn't. Men ARE stronger, tougher, faster, have more
analytical minds and better ability to detect motion and whatnot. It has a little something to do with
thousands of years of evolution as the primary hunters of the human species. It's a fact, and while you can
downplay it as much as you like, it's not going to go away. I might add to that that men also suffer from
increased aggression and violent tendencies as compared to women. Not to mention that more of us are
color-blind. And we don't live as long (by a significant margin). And so on. It all balances out in the end, but
denying or greatly downplaying the existence of differences in gender abilities is stupid.

---
re: feminists:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Posted by veto - c652612-a.hmmnd1.in.home.com (24.14.171.15) on November 03, 2000 at 15:23:21:

In Reply to: Re: I wasn't trying to fight withyou:(dbc posted by Chris on November 03, 2000 at 14:39:36:

They crack me up :DDDDDDDDD SO opinionated. They take every word from a man as being a taunt... I think they define it as having a "inferiority complex". But I don't know.... I'm not a psychiatrist or psychologist:DDDDD

Just let it go, Chris.

---
Posted by Ms Fledermaus - (206.144.146.12) on November 03, 2000 at 15:29:50:

In Reply to: feminists :DD posted by veto on November 03, 2000 at 15:23:21:

Okaaay...you have a problem with me, you point at all feminists.
Tres enlightened...

Ms Eff, don't bother answering, this is pointless and dull to the extreme.

---
Posted by SUPERICK - spider-tq012.proxy.aol.com (152.163.201.47) on November 02, 2000 at 12:56:10:

I love strong women who can and do make it on their own merit, just as I admire strong men who do the same. It can be done without being bitchy, and without keeping that militant chip on your shoulder. The women who "just do it", are the successful ones. The women who think that they have to take on all of the most oppressive, and offensive attributes of humankind to be successful, are usually left in the dust to wallow in their own self pity. Women, be strong, but realize that you are human, and we men still love that aspect of you all.

---
Posted by JUSTIN ZELLERS - spider-wn051.proxy.aol.com (205.188.197.171) on November 02, 2000 at 14:02:35:

It's obvious to me that I am not gaining any respect from any of you. I am not the person who is being one-sided. The links I gave you were not of hate! Where did you come up with that? I know that some things are still not fair for women, but they fail to realize that there is just as much that is not fair to men, we just don't speak up and complain about it enough to try to change things. Anyway, I guess I'm just not welcome here and even Ana does not care for me now. My mind has been opened to your world and I do understand many of the issues you all have brought up, but I still have not gotten anything but rejection from all of you. I guess I might be too sensitive about this, but I really take what most of you said personally, and my feelings have been hurt. This will be my last post on this issue which I'm sure will make you all very happy. Peace

---
Posted by Cest La Vie - 209-130-164-54.nas1.APV.gblx.net (209.130.164.54) on November 03, 2000 at 02:54:46:

In Reply to: I can see that I'm not wanted... posted by JUSTIN ZELLERS on November 02, 2000 at 14:02:35:

Well, if men (especially white men) obtain a victim/minority standing in society like everyone
else, who will be left to hate and blame for every perceived injustice? God forbid that women or
other "minority" group ever become the "power class" and society doesn't run to everyone's
satisfaction. You've taken the bait created by 60's liberals who think there is some perfect
world out there waiting for us, and joined them in this role of self-pity. Take it like a man.
It's in your job description.

---
Posted by Jayseaka - h168n1fls20o955.telia.com (213.64.56.168) on November 03, 2000 at 02:52:11:

In Reply to: I can see that I'm not wanted... posted by JUSTIN ZELLERS on November 02, 2000 at 14:02:35:

Well I for one did not find your post offensive at all.
Im an american who moved to the freaky-feminist country of Sweden about 3 years ago. It's totally out of control. The place I lived in first was full of feminists. The man-hating, all must die type of feminists and I can tell you all one thing..it was not pretty. If I did not agree with these women about everything they had it in for me..which they did because I did not agree with them at all.

I can call myself a feminist because I am for womens rights but I have noticed many times how women can get away with a lot of things while a man would be sent to hell for doing the same exact things. It's really quite stupid IMHO.

When I say I am a feminist I'm more thinking about the women of Afghanistan who can't even go out of the house, can't work and have to be TOTALLY covered with garments. If any part of their skin is showing they get beaten. They are not allowed to be seen without a male relative and on the first floors of their homes their windows must be covered to people can not see the women inside.

Feminists should be paying attention to stuff like this instead of bitching when a guy says they are good looking

--
Posted by Jayseaka - h168n1fls20o955.telia.com (213.64.56.168) on November 04, 2000 at 11:44:19:

In Reply to: Re: I can see that I'm not wanted... posted by Justin Zellers on November 03, 2000 at 10:57:29:
Im married to a lovely Swedish man.

I asked him about this thing with urinals and he said he never heard of it. Neither have I..when did this happen? Where? Stockholm or another city? It really doesn't sound like something that would happen here but ha..ya never know right? Really freaky if you ask me!
---
Posted by goofygrape - tnt1-1-14.phoenix.goodnet.com (209.54.248.14) on November 03, 2000 at 05:39:22:

In Reply to: Re: I can see that I'm not wanted... posted by Jayseaka on November 03, 2000 at 02:52:11:

I recently heard about a story there that feminist are angry at men because they stand up
while going to the bathroom. They claimed that it was degrading to women and they said
men should sit down like women so they had all the urinals in the men’s restroom removed
at a university.

Do you know about this story?
If so can you find and post a news story about it.
I heard a small blip about it on the radio.

---
Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-tq044.proxy.aol.com (152.163.201.64) on November 03, 2000 at 07:27:49:

In Reply to: freaky-feminist country of Sweden posted by goofygrape on November 03, 2000 at 05:39:22:

I know all about that story. They also removed urinals in elementary schools. This is so radical it makes me sick. No men are telling women that they have to stand up to pee, so why should women be telling men they have to sit down? This is just beyond my comprehension...Have they nothing better to complain about over there? This is 100% sexist against men and anybody should be able to see this. I'll try to find that story for you and give you the URL when I have some time. I hope that all of you REAL feminists agree that this is the most ridiculous load of crap ever...

---
Posted by Tony - h139-142-65-19.pml.com (139.142.65.19) on November 05, 2000 at 11:21:33:

In Reply to: Re: freaky-feminist country of Sweden posted by Justin Zellers on November 03, 2000 at 07:27:49:

I remember hearing something about a female urinary "funnel" thing that lets women pee standing up. So maybe the Swedes need to put urinals back in BOTH washrooms. It would probably have a positive impact on women's washroom lines as well. If this funnel invention catches on, look for "Jane" written in the snow next to "John" :P

---
Posted by goofygrape - tnt1-1-29.phoenix.goodnet.com (209.54.248.29) on November 03, 2000 at 08:13:15:

In Reply to: Re: freaky-feminist country of Sweden posted by Justin Zellers on November 03, 2000 at 07:27:49:

I would really like to read that story, I find that unbelievable.

I'd probably would start peeing on some people around there.

---
Posted by TinkAlicious - spider-mtc-tc021.proxy.aol.com (64.12.105.156) on November 03, 2000 at 04:52:17:

In Reply to: Re: I can see that I'm not wanted... posted by Jayseaka on November 03, 2000 at 02:52:11:

Not to mention the lil ole acid baths the women get if they do something a man does not like or the mutilation of thier genitals or their being able to be murdered by a family member if they upset the man.

---
Posted by rdsc - inh1ts06-qfe0.ims.bt.net (193.113.185.132) on November 02, 2000 at 16:47:01:

In Reply to: I can see that I'm not wanted... posted by JUSTIN ZELLERS on November 02, 2000 at 14:02:35:

I realise I'm not helping here, but one of the reasons I've got zero sympathy for male rights activists is that they've got *the* most awesomely thin skins. I haven't read all of todays messages yet so I could be dead wrong about this, (wouldn't be the first time), but I really don't expect that Ana and you'all have given him *that* hard a time. There ain't no reason why you can't stick around Justin, and argue your case, in depth, at length, for as long as you want. You just need stamina.
---
Posted by goofygrape - tnt2-1-231.phoenix.goodnet.com.251.54.209.in-addr.arpa (209.54.251.231) on November 02, 2000 at 14:30:42:

In Reply to: I can see that I'm not wanted... posted by JUSTIN ZELLERS on November 02, 2000 at 14:02:35:

I applaud you for being passionate standing up for what you believe in even when it
seems you are way out numbered here in this arena.

I know exactly how you feel but don’t let it scare you off.
You certainly stirred a lot of thought and discussion which is always a good thing.

---

Posted by JUSTIN ZELLERS - spider-wn063.proxy.aol.com (205.188.197.178) on November 03, 2000 at 11:17:19:

Men’s Anger List

Feminist women want equality in the military, but will not lobby for women as a matter of civic duty to be obligated to sign uo for the draft or be required to fulfill their obligation of combat duty.

After Lorena Bobbitt cut off her husband’s penis while he was sleeping and then threw it out the window of her car, many women laughed and made jokes about this mutilating act. They wouldn’t have laughed if John Wayne Bobbitt had cut off her breast and thrown it out the window.

Lorena Bobbitt was out of treatment in 45 days after being found guilty. How would John Bobbitt have been treated if he had been found guilty of cutting off Lorena’s breast?

Hallmark has a series of greeting cards that say, "Men are Scum." Women would be outraged by, "Women are Bitches" cards.

Capital punishment is a punishment for men. Only one woman has been executed in the past 25 years even though women commit (this does not mean their kill rate, only their conviction rate) 14 percent of the murders in America, but are 1/50th less likely to be executed.

The Dane County Advocate for Battered Women take public money, but will not respond or help battered men. Dane County’s District Attorney will not bring charges against them for practicing discrimination.

In 1994, five men called me because they were battered by their wives. Three explained that they did not hit back or even defend themselves. They called the police and on arrival the men were arrested.

One battered man who called Family Services for help was advised to join a group of men who were batterers.

The Wisconsin State Journal mocked James Luscher and Hames Novak as "near candidates for the loony crowd" for filing a discrimination suit holding that giving free drinks to women on ladies night was illegal. The newspaper refused to apologize upon request. After the Court of Appeals upheld Novak and Luscher, the newspaper was silent, but did not editorialize that the Court of Appeals’ judges were candidates for the loony crowd.

The U.S. Forest Service rather than hiring qualified white males for numerous positions, decided to drop their advertisements and hire no one.

Playboy murderer Benbemick, with the help of a boyfriend, broke out of a Wisconsin prison and fled to Canada. The boyfriend was promptly extradited, convicted and imprisoned. Benbemick fought extradition, finally came back to Wisconsin, and was released. The boyfriend remains in jail.

Salesman X who works for a Fortune 100 company was assigned to teach a young woman sales. Salesman X never stopped for lunch and followed the same routine that day. Salesman X also spoke about the group of sales people who meet at a bar after their weekly sales meeting. Salesman X was inviting the young recruit into the old boys network. The young woman filed a sexual discrimination suit claiming that she was one month pregnant and that Salesman X’s invitation to have drinks with the old boys network was sexual harassment. Salesman X was suspended for 3 days and told he would be fired if any other sexual harassment claim was made against him.

Engineer X asked a secretary (not his) out for lunch. She gratefully accepted and the lunch was congenial. Engineer X asked her out for dinner and she told him she was not interested in developing the relationship. All was fine, except she filed a sexual harassment claim against Engineer X claiming she was "uncomfortable" working with him. Engineer X’s boss found the whole topic of sexual harassment too hot to deal with; his boss banned Engineer X to using the back stairs of the building so that Engineer X would not pass the secretary’s desk.

Manager J asked Employee C, who was a student, what she was studying at the University. She explained that her major was Women’s Studies. Manager J followed up by asking what jobs were available for women with a degree in Women’s Studies. That afternoon Employee C filed a sexual harassment complaint with the employer stating that Manager J was denigrating her area of studies. Employee C continued for 2 years to harass the employer into a money settlement.

Men are 50 percent of parents, do about 40 percent of domestic work, but upon divorce receive physical placement only about 10 percent of the time.

The United States has set up a huge bureaucratic apparatus to collect child support for custodial parents; nothing is spent to enforce fathers' rights to parent their children.

Judges do not even enforce their own court orders regarding fathers' parenting time with their children.

Fathers despise being considered an outsider or visitor to their children by the courts.

Fathers recognize the term "dead beat dads" as bigotry. The percentage of men who pay child support is six times higher than the percentage of women who are ordered to pay child support. Moreover, most men pay child support and those who do not are mostly unemployed, poor, or denied access to their children.

Women vigorously claim that there is little attention paid to their health care. Yet cancer of the breast research receives 6 times more dollar subsidy than cancer of the prostate even though the rates of cancer are similar.

A man accused of sexual harassment or assault is "guilty until he proves he is innocent" instead of "innocent until proven guilty."

About 3/4 of all charges of sexual abuse to children are known to be and are found to be false. Judges follow a safe path in all accusations by denying a father access to his children. After innocence as been established those same judges use the fathers absence and the children's accommodation to a life without a father as reason for awarding a mother primary physical placement.

Even though statistics and studies show that more than 50 percent of accusations of sexual assault are false, district attorneys will not bring charges against the lying party even though it is a felony.

Men receive 58 percent longer prison sentences for conviction of the same crime.

Paternity fathers are denied the right to physical placement by statute in the state of Wisconsin.

In Bosnia the young women are allowed to leave towns for fear they will be raped. The young men left behind are killed afterwards. The American media are outraged by young who are threatened by rape.

"Women and children first!" Do men's lives not have the same intrinsic value?

Men are first and normally only when it comes to being killed by terrorists or beaten by police.

If women make only 75 cents on the male dollar (which is debatable), then men pay 125 percent of the funding of social security. How is it justice in taxation that men only receive 33 percent of Social Security benefits?

How can it be said that women's health care is neglected when they are the primary users of the health care system and men live on average 7.5 years less than women?

Why is it that even though the city of Madison in Wisconsin has one of the strongest affirmative action programs in America, women will not take good paying jobs with a huge benefit packages as garbage collectors?

Why is it that only about 14 percent of grade school teachers are men and yet this is not an affirmative action issue even though young people are desperately in need for male role models?

Why is it when 10 men die and one woman is injured at a construction site, the newspaper headline will likely read, "Ten Workers Die, Woman Injured"?

Men are disgusted when presented as buffoons on almost every television advertisement related to the home or children?

Men are even more disgusted with all the television comedies and movies in which the audience laughs when men are hit in the testicles deliberately by women or other men? What reaction would take place if this same programmed laughing were associated with women being punched in the breasts? Seriously, think about this one...

Much is made of the Korean comfort women during the Japanese occupation; what about the hundreds of thousands of men who survived or died in labor camps or who were simply executed?

If Rodney King had been Roberta King, and beaten as he was, the police officers would have received life in prison. Men are the routine targets of police violence.

Why is rape known about, acceptable, and used as a means of prison control in male prisons, but toleration of it would be abhorrent in female prisons?

Why is it that it is discrimination to charge men lower rates for health insurance in HMO's, but acceptable to charge men higher rates for car and life insurance?

Using a victim-defense for premeditated murder outrages any person with a sense of fairness or civility?

Excusing a woman from crime on the basis of a post partum or PMS defense is defended by pop feminists. Men are told by these same pop feminists that women are just as solid in their judgments to hold high office of a sensitive nature.

Men get tired of listening to women rant and rave about how few women are in political office when so few take the initiative to fun for office and of those who run for office, they have little agenda to offer demonstrating that they care to represent all the people of their district, including men and women.

Women to man: "Your income is family income; my income is mine."

Most men are enraged at being called oppressors and patriarchs. In a society with economic classes where 5 percent of men and women have 50 percent o the wealth, 95 percent of men struggle each day to make a living and are hardly powerful, rich or patriarchs. In fact, the vast majority of white men are not empowered.

Men do not have procreative rights in the United States. They have no choice.

If a man wants a woman to have an abortion and she chooses to have a child, he is enslaved to pay child support for 18 years.

If a man wants a child and the woman aborts the child, he grieves and no one even recognizes his grief as legitimate.

If two young people, both of whom are unskilled and unprepared to be a parent, have a child and the mother applies for welfare, she will be given a welfare check, healthcare, child care, a free education, and food stamps. The young man will be declared a deadbeat dad and imprisoned.

Young men's suicide rate is astronomical and society does not care.

Men at retirement are seven times more likely to commit suicide than women, and nobody cares.

Seventy-five percent of the homeless are men. Ninety-nine percent of the press coverage reads, "Homeless women and children."

Rep. Patricia Schoreder speaks about the brave men and women who fought America's wars. The number of women killed in all of America's wars from an accounting point of view is statistically insignificant.

Every blue collar "most dangerous" job ranks as a category numerically dominated by men. All but one of the white collar "most dangerous jobs" are also numerically dominated by men. Why are dangerous jobs men's jobs and why are men denied extra compensation for doing America's dangerous work where they are disabled and killed at a 19 to 1 ratio to women?

How can marriage be an economic contract when divorce is no fault? Who created the nonsense that a woman can own a man's career in a marriage of moderate duration (10 years in Wisconsin)?

Judges routinely deny parenting time to fathers, and then want to increase child support so that a mother can afford more child care.

The Violence Against Women Act was written and passed with full knowledge that men are the victims of 80 percent of all violence in America.

White men often pay for three families of children: 1. Child support for their first marriage; 2. AFDC children via taxation; 3. Children from their current family.

No baby changing support apparatuses in public men's washrooms.

Men resent being told that the Christian religion is Patriarchal when women represent two thirds of its customers.

Men recognize the inconsistency in being told that God is Patriarchal when women are two thirds of its customers.

Men recognize the inconsistency in being told that God is a she, but with no mention that the devil is also a she.

In Wisconsin a woman who is drunk cannot give sexual consent even if she is not passed out. The next morning, she can charge her lover with rape. However, the same consideration is not given to her lover who also was intoxicated.

Women want to be equal, still they expect men to continue to take the sexual initiative. If they are pleased by the overtures of a man, they are delighted. If they are not pleased because he may be the wrong man or because of his style of responding to general flirtation, they accuse him of sexual harassment.

Men resent that the district attorney in Dane County seems to prosecute almost every case of sexual accusation and domestic violence without intellectually discriminating.

Men resent that women and minorities are "affirmative actioned" into jobs, promotions, and graduate and professional school openings even when they are less competent than white men who are applying for the same positions.

Men resent that those same classes are often excused for their failure to perform adequately in their new "affirmative actioned" positions.

Men further resent the same classes above calling white males "racists," "sexists," or some other kind of "ists" for pointing out that white men are smart enough to recognize that a person without adequate skills or experience has failed.

Men know that every man is not a rapist. Even women know that only a very few men are rapists, yet only a few decent women are standing up to the absurd antimale generalizations of radical feminists.

Men are angry when women continue to deny that women are sexually powerful and that they have power through the control of men's access to sex.

American feminists are reprehensible for their outrage at the use of clitorectomies in Africa while circumcising their sons. Only America is near universal in the sexual mutilation of male infants.

Bar Owner Z has a swinging place where young men and women meet. Bar Owner Z has two ID checkers at all times. Sixteen year old Lolita obtains an almost perfect, near impossible to detect fake ID and gains entrance. Sixteen year old Lolita seduces Bar Owner Z and by evening's end, he takes her home for the night. Lolita's parents come to know the truth of her deceits. They call the district attorney and Bar Owner Z is charged and convicted. Bar Owner Z pays a fine, has his business closed for one week, and spends a month in jail. Nothing happens to Lolita.
Conclusion
White males learn sports at a young age. Sports have highly defined, specific rules. From this experience males learn at a young age to be Just and Fair. It is not unusual to listen to young boys quoting the rules to one another when there is a dispute, and invoking a concept of fairness flowing from those rules.
Sports have prepared males for the responsibility of power decisions in politics and business. When men come into the double standard world of those women who are not Just and Fair in their positions of power, they react. Their reactions are not anxiety but anger with those who do not play by Fair and Just rules.

White males are angry by indiscriminate and subjective judgments not based on identifiable rules but the whim of the female players. White males are expressing their anger, and expressing it in a socially acceptable way. They overwhelmingly voted for traditional and mostly white male Republicans in 1994. I expect that they will vote in even higher percentages for traditional white male Republicans in 1996.

If my predictions are even close to correct, Ellen Goodman and lots of strident feminists should be feeling "anxiety." But they need not get too anxious. White males wrote and passed every significant piece of civil rights and progressive legislation in America.

-----
Posted by Arguich811 - campusa0033nuts.unimaas.nl (137.120.224.33) on November 03, 2000 at 12:29:32:

In Reply to: EVERYBODY PLEASE READ THIS IN ITS ENTIRETY posted by JUSTIN ZELLERS on November 03, 2000 at 11:17:19:

Justin,

I find it absolutely impossible to feel even remotely sympathetic towards the view you are here exposing. What exactly, apart from wanting to be right -which you definitely are not- do you want? What do you think is your point, because: I do not see it - and frankly, I don't think I want to see it.

Considering the long list of reactions on the Analog, I think it should be clear to you by now that you will not find support for the above view. So why do you persist? Just accept the fact that most (if not all) of us do NOT agree with you. Live with it, deal with it, move on.

---
Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-tq071.proxy.aol.com (152.163.201.76) on November 03, 2000 at 12:58:05:

In Reply to: Re: EVERYBODY PLEASE READ THIS IN ITS ENTIRETY posted by Arguich811 on November 03, 2000 at 12:29:32:

I am just putting this stuff out for you people to see, because since you don't look for this type of thing and don't want to see these terrible truths, why shouldn't I? I'm not disagreeing with your views at all, I'm just trying to get you to open your minds and see mine too. Hey, it's only fair. That is what this country is built upon, freedom to share ideas.

You are blind, narrow-minded, and naive if you don't understand at least most of those issues. Oh wait, I think I understand why you don't understand..."I do not see it - and frankly, I don't think I want to see it." You said it all right there. It's totally apparent to everybody that you just can't handle the truth. Enough said.

---
Posted by goofygrape - tnt2-2-142.phoenix.goodnet.com (209.54.252.142) on November 03, 2000 at 13:07:00:

In Reply to: Re: Does not sound like equality Issues posted by Justin Zellers on November 03, 2000 at 13:00:03:

I want to hear the complete story about the pissers in Sweden.

PLEASE?

goofy

---
Posted by mya - h162n2fls20o94.telia.com (212.181.129.162) on November 04, 2000 at 05:17:20:

In Reply to: HEY JUSTIN! posted by goofygrape on November 03, 2000 at 13:07:00:

i've never heard of the removal of urinals from the universities, but even if it's true, what's the big deal? Men can stand up and piss, using a regular toilett...thus still being able to recap the urinal feel of the moment:)
but women cant use urinals at all (at least i havent figured out a way:)

I think this has more to do with a logical solution that feminism. (but then i'm a woman and on top of that from sweden:)

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Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-wd024.proxy.aol.com (205.188.193.159) on November 04, 2000 at 09:23:35:

In Reply to: Re: HEY JUSTIN! posted by mya on November 04, 2000 at 05:17:20:

But still, WHY?????

---
Posted by mya - h162n2fls20o94.telia.com (212.181.129.162) on November 04, 2000 at 18:30:43:

In Reply to: Re: HEY JUSTIN! posted by Justin Zellers on November 04, 2000 at 09:23:35:

so that they can take that useless space and expand the books on womens rights section of the library?:)

---
Posted by ANA on November 04, 2000 at 10:11:41:

In Reply to: Re: HEY JUSTIN! posted by Justin Zellers on November 04, 2000 at 09:23:35:

after living with many many men roomates throughout the years. i am ALL for men sitting down while they pee for the simple reason that most of them cannot aim it straight into it the whole time...leaving pee all over the sides of the toilet as well as droplets all over the floor. and that's nasty to clean up.
---
Posted by mya - h162n2fls20o94.telia.com (212.181.129.162) on November 04, 2000 at 19:31:32:

In Reply to: Re: HEY JUSTIN! posted by ANA on November 04, 2000 at 10:11:41:

this poor mom with five boys came up with a great trick after years of wiping up pee around the toilett. she finally drew a target down in the toilett bowl! according to her it worked wonders:)

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Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-wi072.proxy.aol.com (205.188.197.52) on November 04, 2000 at 19:28:28:

In Reply to: Re: HEY JUSTIN! posted by ANA on November 04, 2000 at 10:11:41:

Then getting rid of urinals is exactly what they should NOT do! I agree that when a man uses a restroom at a house, he should sit down, but in a public men's room, there is no way in hell I am sitting down for any reason! Never have, never will. Later gater.

---
Posted by ANA on November 04, 2000 at 20:39:01:

In Reply to: Re: HEY JUSTIN! posted by Justin Zellers on November 04, 2000 at 19:28:28:

why? is standing up some sort of macho thing 4 u?

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Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-tq021.proxy.aol.com (152.163.201.51) on November 04, 2000 at 22:23:18:

In Reply to: Re: HEY JUSTIN! posted by ANA on November 04, 2000 at 20:39:01:

Of course not! This is just ridiculous. It's just easier and it is nasty to sit down on a seat where others have sat. Men don't get those nifty little seat covers that women get in their restrooms. If you could see the differences in men's and women's public restrooms you'd understand.

---
Posted by ANA on November 05, 2000 at 10:27:29:

In Reply to: Re: HEY JUSTIN! posted by Justin Zellers on November 04, 2000 at 22:23:18:

i have only come across those seat covers once in a blue moon. when in a public restroom i have learned to hover over the seat a bit and not touch it. or else u can put toilet paper on the seat.

i have seen the differences between men's and women's bathrooms. the men's are nastier by far...because u don't sit down!!! pee gets sprayed everywhere!

it makes no sense to pee standing up unless u are in the wilderness.
ya, easier for YOU 2 stand up...but ever think of the poor person who has to clean those bathrooms at the end of the day?

and while we are on the subject of it being easier ( which i think is actually just lazier )...why do men's underwear come with the slit in the front so u can grab your penis and pull it out that way?
i mean, what's so hard about just pulling DOWN your underwear? it would take the same amount of time. not that i think it's BAD that there is a slit there...it doesn't bother ME any...but just WHY?

i really do believe that a lot of men's resistance is just about that many view it as "peeing like a girl"...which in their mind makes them feel like a sissy. and that, to me, is just ridiculous.

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Posted by Chris - 209-122-217-96.s96.tnt1.atn.pa.dialup.rcn.com (209.122.217.96) on November 05, 2000 at 11:11:57:

In Reply to: Re: HEY JUSTIN! posted by ANA on November 05, 2000 at 10:27:29:

Why have urinals in men's bathrooms? A variety of reasons, actually. First off, they're smaller than toilets
and as such occupy less space. You can put more of them into the bathroom. Second, just unzipping your
fly takes less time than dropping your pants and sitting down. Ever wonder why after you get out of a movie
there's a line for the women's bathroom and none for the men's? Now you know. We usually have more... uh...
facilities and it takes us less time to use them.

Why pee standing up? Well, it's faster (as I mentioned above) and to be honest, the only people that spray
urine everywhere are the careless assholes that the rest of us typically despise. I'm not sure about the whole
"sissy" aspect of it. It doesn't factor in for me, but there are some idiots out there. It's just a matter of time. It
takes a couple seconds to unzip your fly and be... ready for action, as it were, but often takes considerably
longer to unbuckle your belt, unbutton and unzip your pants, untuck your shirt, and then do all of those in reverse
once you're done. And if you're reasonably careful, the hygeine difference is practically nonexistent.

Why do men's underwear have those slits in the front? It has something to do with the fact that men's shirts, at
least the ones that button down, are typically tucked into the pants, and just pulling down the elastic on your
underwear can cause some uncomfortable bunching. That and the fact that we're lazy. :)
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Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-wn063.proxy.aol.com (205.188.197.178) on November 03, 2000 at 11:33:50:

In Reply to: EVERYBODY PLEASE READ THIS IN ITS ENTIRETY posted by JUSTIN ZELLERS on November 03, 2000 at 11:17:19:

This anger list was written in 1995. There is one correction I must make. CAPITAL PUNISHMENT: The United States of America has no put a total of 3 women to death in its history. Two of which have been in the past 4 years. I think I read that over 8,000 men have been killed by our government, and I realize that more men commit violent acts (or at least are procecuted for violent acts), but come on! The ratio is certainly not 8,000:3. Any radical Sweedish Feminist would even admit that!

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Posted by Ms Fledermaus - (206.144.146.12) on November 03, 2000 at 12:15:54:

In Reply to: Re: EVERYBODY PLEASE READ THIS IN ITS ENTIRETY posted by Justin Zellers on November 03, 2000 at 11:33:50:

I don't even know where to start, kid.
I wish I had more time to take your little list on and give rebuttals.
I think since I don't have much time to devote to this post, here's just a little factoid:
Lorena Bobbit is/was NOT a feminist. She was very mentally disturbed.
She did NOT tell women everywhere, "Let's go on a dick-severing rampage!!"
No, she told other women that they should get help if they were in her shoes.
And as for a man would get so much more press if they did something similar...look at how much
media time is devoted to female genital circumsicion--not only in other countries, but in this one as well...
anyway, my point is, holding Lorena up for show to say, "that's feminism for you" is a stupid, cheap shot.
It's like me holding up Ted Bundy and saying, "that's men for you!!!"
Both examples are NOT sane people, and it's an oversimplification to use them. (There was a lot of oversimplification in your
long post, in fact...)

Again, wish I had more time...

Ms Fledermaus,wishing cyntia Heimel would come visit this BBS today...

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Posted by blonnie - (206.246.66.108) on November 03, 2000 at 15:15:12:

In Reply to: Oh, here we go... posted by Ms Fledermaus on November 03, 2000 at 12:15:54:

another not:
as i recall, it was not only -women- who were joking about her breast, it was also men. jay leno..david letterman, just two examples. the entire country was joking!

ALSO it wouldn't have been as 'humerous' if he'd cut off her breast..because it was proven that he'd -abused- her in the past. cutting off her breast would simply be further abuse..she was serving him -back-. i'm NOT saying it was a GOOD thing..it was most certainly not!! i'm just explaining why it would have been a little different.

-blonnie-

everyone laughed.

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Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-wd071.proxy.aol.com (205.188.193.181) on November 03, 2000 at 22:04:22:

In Reply to: Re: Oh, here we go... posted by blonnie on November 03, 2000 at 15:15:12:

I sure as hell didn't laugh. I was in 4th grade and I cried about it for quite a long time. I am not defending him in any way, but as you stated, that was not the right thing for her to do. But my point is, not everybody laughed.

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Posted by blonnie - (207.199.148.253) on November 04, 2000 at 11:17:13:

In Reply to: Re: Oh, here we go... posted by Justin Zellers on November 03, 2000 at 22:04:22:

i agree that not 'everyone' laughed..mr bobbit most certainly didn't laugh.. sorry for being unclear. what i meant by 'everyone' - was it was not just women who laughed at the situation - as you said, .. me saying that 'everyone' laughed..was wrong..but is as general as you saying "women" laughed.. - your quote: "many women laughed and made jokes about this mutilating act." you completely disregarded the fact that -men- laughed as well. i just mean, it was not a -gender- biased 'humour' thing.

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Posted by blonnie - (206.246.66.108) on November 03, 2000 at 15:22:42:

In Reply to: Re: Oh, here we go... posted by blonnie on November 03, 2000 at 15:15:12:

i do not have time to count these myself..
but i looked up
"bobbit abused wife"
& found song paradies..
please, go look at these pages & tell me how many are mens webpages?

i do not have time to do this myself & i am trusting that the majority are mens pages.
you can even goto excite & try this yourself..these were all on the first search page.
*i ran out of time*

http://www.geocities.com/Augusta/5577/

http://www.duke.edu/~jac3/origin/bobbit.html

http://www.angelfire.com/wy/divil/index.html

if they aren't, & i made a fool of myself,..i'ms afe w/that too :p

-blonnie-

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Posted by Chris - 216-164-200-179.s433.tnt4.atn.pa.dialup.rcn.com (216.164.200.179) on November 03, 2000 at 13:12:30:

In Reply to: Oh, here we go... posted by Ms Fledermaus on November 03, 2000 at 12:15:54:

You miss the point. Lorena Bobbit was NOT held up as an example of feminism in action. She was used
as an example to illustrate that fact that certain crimes are NOT held in the same regard, BECAUSE Men
and Women are treated differently by both the media and the Justice system.

As for Cythia Heimel, I see you're taking her advice:

When in doubt, make a fool of yourself. There is a microscopically thin line between being brilliantly creative
and acting like the most gigantic idiot on earth. So what the hell, leap.

---

Posted by whorlpool - (207.31.234.39) on November 01, 2000 at 22:06:21:

In Reply to: Re: oh god posted by Justin Zellers on November 01, 2000 at 17:38:13:

I'm an ardent feminist, and I see that as one of the most positive aspects of my identity. I hear what you're saying, but, respectfully, I would suggest you have a lot more of the world to see and think about. Women are simply not treated as equals anywhere.

I think you may be paying too much attention to the fringes of feminism rather than the heart of it, the heart which only stands for one thing: gender equality. What you will learn is that words are political creatures. Humanism is not the same as feminism. Humanism is a nice thing, but it ignores the very real problems that women still face.

I obviously don't know what specific problems of discrimination you have faced, but I imagine that the problems are not so much gender issues as broader-based problems arising from societal ills that extend well beyond any sort of battle between the sexes. If I have experienced any discrimination at all, it's in this: I felt a strong compulsion to conform to a "masculine" stereotype that I don't feel a part of. I'm not homosexual, but I've felt strong homophobia directed at me, perhaps because I'm not a typical male. I've also felt strong prejudice against me because I am enthusiastic about things and I am intelligent; these are not typical male traits, so I have been attacked for them.

If these are some of the things for which you yourself have felt discriminated against, and if these are part of the things you use in your argument for male rights, than it's not as if I disagree with you, but I believe, quite strongly, that in attacking feminists you are fighting the wrong people. The societal ills go deeper, and in promoting the feminist agenda (not the fringe one but the mainstream one) you would most likely promote your own.

I think you would be pleasantly surprised by the openminded nature of most of the women in this world who call themselves feminists. The extremists are few and far between. We owe those extremists a debt of gratitude, for without them women would be even worse off than they are today. But the extremists do not speak for all of us feminists.

My feminism, like that of many many others, is easily defined: we want equality between the sexes, without hatred, without backlash, without blame.

Posted by Justin Zellers - spider-to012.proxy.aol.com (152.163.204.47) on November 02, 2000 at 09:31:28:

In Reply to: i'm 33 posted by whorlpool on November 01, 2000 at 22:06:21:

Okay, three things...

1. "Humanism is a nice thing, but it ignores the very real problems that women still face." How's that? Why can't we fight for equality between the sexes without excluding and ignoring one?
2. "I am enthusiastic about things and I am intelligent; these are not typical male traits." You're trying to tell me that men are typically not intelligent? I am at a loss for words on that one...
3. "In attacking feminists you are fighting the wrong people." I am NOT attacking feminists in any way, shape or form. I am just trying to get everybody to open their minds to the whole picture, which includes men's rights. And I am not for backlashes either, but this is just a possibility if we continue to ignore the harm that is being done to males in today's society.

Posted by whorlpool - (207.31.234.39) on November 02, 2000 at 09:53:57:

In Reply to: Re: i'm 33 posted by Justin Zellers on November 02, 2000 at 09:31:28:

1. Humanism vs. feminism: i mean that the very word itself is politicized. The word feminism has more political power to help women; it's not neutral, and women still have a long way to go. The word humanism dilutes the message, so to speak. I wasn't really talking about the philosophies, I was talking about the words. And words actually do make a difference.

For what it's worth, I'm very much of a humanist, but I'm also very much of a feminist.

2. Of course men can be intelligent. But I found, in my own experience, that I was not "allowed" to be intelligent, as a man (well, as a young man; i'm talking grade school here). Intelligence was not a quality that other men valued, so I had to hide it or I was automatically ostracized.

I have to say that this may be changed a little now; your experience in this regard may be different than mine was. Now that computers are so important, intelligence (geekiness, even) are much more highly valued. For example, when I was in high school, I could not show an interest in computers without having to explain myself to my friends.

3. You may not be attacking feminists, but I believe (though I don't have it in front of me at the moment) that your original post did use the term "pop-feminists" in a way that we could assume was denigrating.

Anyway, it's become obvious to me that you are NOT just some jerk who wants shove women back in their place. HOWEVER, I would suggest to you that some of the people posting the things you're pointing us to ARE those jerks.

My original point stands: that women simply are not yet treated equally anywhere in the world. If some men are suffering, and if there is some unfairness in treatment of men, then that IS a bad thing. I will agree with you there. BUT the fact remains: EVERY SINGLE WOMAN IN THE ENTIRE WORLD EXPERIENCES DISCRIMINATION, ON MULTIPLE FRONTS, THROUGHOUT HER LIFE.

We still have a long long way to go. From my perspective, men's rights, to the small extent that they are truly an issue, will be improved by working for women's rights.

emanations
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Posted by rdsc - host62-7-113-212.btinternet.com (62.7.113.212) on November 01, 2000 at 12:34:01:

In Reply to: Men's Rights posted by Justin Zellers on October 31, 2000 at 20:37:51:

Male activism is not a radical movement. It's reactionary to it's *core*. You can moan as much as you want about the way men are socially conditioned now, but unless you get A SENSE OF HISTORY that is all you will ever be able to do: (moan).

No intelligent person can honestly review the last 2000 years of cultural conditioning without concluding that, across all cultures, for centuries, women have got the shitty end of the stick.

In the west, for most of the last 2 millenia, it was *explicitly* argued that women did not possess souls. Until about 150 years ago women in Britain (and I'd guess the US) were *legally* considered to be chattel property (right up there with livestock and slaves), when MY MOTHER married she had to leave her job in the Civil Service because there was a "marriage bar" (this was in the 50's) and "wifey" didn't belong in the workplace. The qualified right to the legal authority over their own bodies (abortion) was won less than 40 years ago.

You take a *pop* at Pop-feminism cos it's an easy target. When I meet a male rights activist who is capable of dealing with radical feminism... I'll eat my pants: cos the simple fact is that most of the most brilliant activists, writers and philosophers of the 20th century, were women.

The Pankhursts, Rebecca West, Emma Goldman, Adrienne Rich, Susan Griffin, Gena Corea, Alice Walker, Hannah Arendt, Robin Morgan, Andrea Dworkin, Monica Sjoo, Germaine Greer, Dale Spender, Marija Gimbutas etc etc.

If you're not engaging with there "ideas", then you're not showing respect. (IMHO)

---

If you think that women actually have it worse than men do in this day and age, think again. I am a male rights activist and I want to get the word out that there is a backlash to pop-feminism just around the corner, so for all of you feminists, you better read up on our topics and prepare! Here are some very informative web-addresses to some sites that will enlighten you and show you what's on the minds of many men these days. Take a good look! Thanks.

http://law.about.com/newsissues/law/library/weekly/aa101600a.htm

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2000/10/19/mens_choice/index.html

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww2000104.shtml

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/0009/bk.finn.html

http://www.spintechmag.com/0008/hr0800.htm

http://www.backlash.com/book/rape2.html

http://detnews.com/1997/metro/9704/20/04200070.htm

http://www.cirp.org/library/psych/rhinehart1/

http://www.nocirc.org/legal/smith.html

http://www.backlash.com/book/oppress1.html

http://www.backlash.com/book/blash.html

http://www.egroups.com/message/backlash/19223

http://www.backlash.com/content/gender/votemale/raj.html

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2000/05/sommers.htm

http://www.ncfm.org/edtoral.htm

http://www.backlash.com/content/gender/votemale/strag01.html

http://www.backlash.com/book/sexism.html

http://www.mens-rights.org/

http://www.mens-rights.org/hayward.htm

http://www.menmedia.org/

http://www.mensactivism.org/

http://www.rulymob.com/